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Post Reply transgender boy wins girls state wrestling title
Posted 2/26/17 , edited 2/26/17

sundin13 wrote:

You should know as well as anyone that such a thing isn't comparable to transgenderism .


Its not that far of a leap to go from mutilating your genitals to mutilating other parts of your body because you feel like it. Not to mention hormone blockers, which we don't know all the side effects of is pretty much human experimentation.


All this tells me is that there should be a purge of Marxists in academia.
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Posted 2/26/17

Amyas_Leigh wrote:


sundin13 wrote:

You should know as well as anyone that such a thing isn't comparable to transgenderism .


Its not that far of a leap to go from mutilating your genitals to mutilating other parts of your body because you feel like it. Not to mention hormone blockers, which we don't know all the side effects of is pretty much human experimentation.


Well, theres a few reasons why they are different.

First of all, as previously stated, there is a clear biological basis for much of Transgenderism. This means that the underlying cause is often understood to at least some degree and as such the line of treatment is generally more clear. On the other hand, something like Body Dysmorphic Disorder isn't really understood at a biological level and it is something that is heavily influenced by cultural and societal factors. Because of this, often surgical treatment doesn't have the desired effect. You see a large disparity in satisfaction with surgical treatment when comparing the two conditions, which I believe is largely because of the biological vs cultural factors behind the disorders. Basically, treating culture is a lot different than treating biology.

Second of all, when looking at the degree of physical health change between sexual reassignment surgery and blinding yourself, there is a big disparity. Under SRS, you aren't really losing much in the way of physical health. You may be losing your fertility but this is a procedure that plenty of people volunteer for and doesn't really affect day to day life. On the other hand, the ability to see is fairly important. Virtually the entire world is designed around vision.

Third, you keep trying to re-contextualize transgenderism into something flippant with phrases such as "because you feel like it". This isn't a whim and I don't think any sensible person would recommend receiving surgery on a whim, no matter how pro-trans rights they are. This is something that is undergone after years of counseling and examining all of the options available. It is also something that is often done as a second stage to transitioning after hormone treatment. This is not a whim and as previously discussed, it is not a strictly psychological condition either.

Fourth, "not knowing all of the side effects" of something does not make it tantamount to human experimentation, however that seems to be more of an issue you have with the FDA than with trans rights.
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Posted 2/26/17 , edited 2/26/17

Amyas_Leigh wrote:

All this tells me is that there should be a purge of Marxists in academia.


"If I can't refute you I'll just have to shoot you."
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Posted 2/26/17 , edited 2/26/17

BlueOni wrote:


The ICD-10 is outdated and due to be replaced by the ICD-11 soon, and this specific item is at issue in the reviewing and drafting processes. Meanwhile, the APA has already revised its own diagnostic manual to put emphasis on the actual problem at issue, specifically clinically significant discomfort (dysphoria). The recommended treatment for transgender peoples' "insanity" (the dysphoria) is, based upon the findings of these professionals and whether one is using the ICD-10's description of the issue or not, for the patient to undergo a controlled transition toward alignment with their expressed gender identification and for society to embrace and support them in their expressed gender identity.

During the APA's review of the matter for the DSM the issues concerning whether to retain a diagnosis at all primarily concerned whether retention would unduly contribute to stigma against transgender people (they're talking about your reading of their diagnostic manuals) and whether exclusion would unduly negatively impact access to recommended healthcare (i.e. insurance companies declining to include coverage for mental health services, hormonal therapies, and surgeries on the grounds that they're not medically necessary).


You have a really good post here, because it is kind of a microcosm of the general ethos of the war on science we see in the west. It's a great example of the ideology-driven, pseudo-science quackery that has become so common of late. For example, you start by commenting how the "ICD-10" is "out of date". Not only is this false, as it regularly receives updates and tweakings(sometimes on national levels), but the statement echoes the pseudo-science mindset of ideologues. The notion that science and medicine somehow go old, like last weeks bread, is scientifically ignorant. Time itself does not make science go bad. Another thing it reveals is ideology driving science: "Our socio-political ideology has changed since these facts were published, so we must update them to reflect the Current Truth"--truly Orwellian.

You even quote the much-discredited APA on the subject. The APA is well known for being politically driven on subjects of sexuality and gender; so much so, that it has been condemned by it's own best and brightest former leaders such as Dr. Nicolas Cummings and Dr Brian Perloff. Not only that, but the APA is so quacked out on these issues that it is one of the only ostensibly medical organizations to have been censured by US Congress as not reliable. This should come as no surprise, as you cite a great example of why they are so dangerous: the willingness to alter science to cater to socio-political fads. All legitimate scientists, from astrophysicists to database scientists know: when you are willing to even consider altering science for political reasons then you have sacrificed any credibility you may have had. Heck, as I type this the documentary "Fabric of the Cosmos" comes to mind, where multiple physicists express the very opposite of what you write about regarding "stigmas". They talk about how there is no rule or law that says we have to or deserve to be comfortable with what is revealed to us through scientific endeavor. The willingness to alter science because of social discomfort (ie, "stigmas"), shows a great corruption of science for the whims of ideology. It really is Orwellian in nature.

On a more personal note: I have only personally known a few professionals in the field of psychology, all of whom, when I bring up these topics and the APA, have expressed sentiments along the lines of taking what the APA says with a bucket of salt. Hence, the micro really lines up with the macro, in my experience.
Posted 2/26/17

sundin13 wrote:



Well, theres a few reasons why they are different.

First of all, as previously stated, there is a clear biological basis for much of Transgenderism. This means that the underlying cause is often understood to at least some degree and as such the line of treatment is generally more clear. On the other hand, something like Body Dysmorphic Disorder isn't really understood at a biological level and it is something that is heavily influenced by cultural and societal factors. Because of this, often surgical treatment doesn't have the desired effect. You see a large disparity in satisfaction with surgical treatment when comparing the two conditions, which I believe is largely because of the biological vs cultural factors behind the disorders. Basically, treating culture is a lot different than treating biology.

Second of all, when looking at the degree of physical health change between sexual reassignment surgery and blinding yourself, there is a big disparity. Under SRS, you aren't really losing much in the way of physical health. You may be losing your fertility but this is a procedure that plenty of people volunteer for and doesn't really affect day to day life. On the other hand, the ability to see is fairly important. Virtually the entire world is designed around vision.

Third, you keep trying to re-contextualize transgenderism into something flippant with phrases such as "because you feel like it". This isn't a whim and I don't think any sensible person would recommend receiving surgery on a whim, no matter how pro-trans rights they are. This is something that is undergone after years of counseling and examining all of the options available. It is also something that is often done as a second stage to transitioning after hormone treatment. This is not a whim and as previously discussed, it is not a strictly psychological condition either.

Fourth, "not knowing all of the side effects" of something does not make it tantamount to human experimentation, however that seems to be more of an issue you have with the FDA than with trans rights.


Holy wall of text batman. Lets see, where to start. Transgenderism and GDD are the same thing. The physical and psychological effects of SRS definitely change your day to day. MtF trans people will have to dilate the wound they call a vagina every day for the rest of their life to keep it from healing up. While having to live with the fact that it will never be what they want it to be, there is a lot of regret, leading to depression, anxiety and suicide.
Saying its because they feel like it wasn't meant to be flippant, its just fact.
And yes I would say I have a problem with the FDA allowing young children to be injected with hormone blockers because they feel like it. Or because the mommy who will finally get the little boy/girl she wanted felt like it.
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Posted 2/26/17 , edited 2/27/17
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Posted 2/26/17 , edited 2/26/17

Amyas_Leigh wrote
Holy wall of text batman. Lets see, where to start. Transgenderism and GDD are the same thing. The physical and psychological effects of SRS definitely change your day to day. MtF trans people will have to dilate the wound they call a vagina every day for the rest of their life to keep it from healing up. While having to live with the fact that it will never be what they want it to be, there is a lot of regret, leading to depression, anxiety and suicide.
Saying its because they feel like it wasn't meant to be flippant, its just fact.
And yes I would say I have a problem with the FDA allowing young children to be injected with hormone blockers because they feel like it. Or because the mommy who will finally get the little boy/girl she wanted felt like it.


"dilate the wound they call a vagina". That's a very poetic, almost-triggering way of putting it. It really captures the hollow sadness that said mockery-of-a-treatment invokes in anyone with their humanity intact.

I don't know if it's productive, though, to get into pedantic arguments with people who want us to think this stuff is normal, healthy and good. They're ideologically driven, and I don't know if reason will get through to them.
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Posted 2/26/17
Holy shit guys. If you can't discuss this without being completely awful then keep your opinions to yourselves. ><
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Posted 2/26/17 , edited 2/27/17
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Posted 2/26/17 , edited 2/27/17

Humms wrote:

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I honestly do not know what to say. This thread has left me speechless.
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Posted 2/26/17 , edited 2/27/17

Nalaniel wrote:



I honestly do not know what to say. This thread has left me speechless.


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Are you going to say how the world is doomed next? Seriously, If you think that my comment is wrong, then you are basically saying that humans have no gender to begin with, we grow into it.

Doctor? what is it doctor?

" Its.... It's a...... ummm..... Ok I'll just leave it blank for now until it grows up and makes that choice"

" What? but its a boy, I can see from here"

" Excuse me sir, this Hospital doesn't approve of the way you are labeling this child, do you want me to call security?"

Because that's basically how you are seeing this situation, and this is the lengths people will go to defend such useless and meaningless label.
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Posted 2/26/17

runec wrote:Holy shit guys. If you can't discuss this without being completely awful then keep your opinions to yourselves. ><

>OP posts an article about transgender without bothering to read
>oniichan tries to savage any meaningful conversation, but to no avail (given the subject at hand, the fact he tried is admirable)
>thread quickly derails into attacking trans people in general
>_>...
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Posted 2/26/17 , edited 2/27/17
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Posted 2/26/17 , edited 2/27/17
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Posted 2/26/17 , edited 2/27/17

octorockandroll
[quoted content was removed by moderator after it was quoted].


But but ...

I can't just let this go
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