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Post Reply Pride - Not all are treated equal
Ejanss 
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Posted 3/21/17

PrinceJudar wrote:


Ejanss wrote:
As I like to joke every Pride Parade day (since I live in a northeast college-town):
"C'mon, when do the OTHER Six Deadly Sins get their own day, already? I see plenty of Greed, Jealousy and Anger, when do we get down with the Lust, Gluttony and Sloth parties? "


Ironically, I also thought of the 7 sins when reading this topic--although what came to mind was Pride from FMAB because I'm a weeb.


I nominate Diane as the new mascot of Jealousy Day.
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Posted 3/21/17

ChaoticRuins wrote:


jaragnaros wrote:

Lets face it being white means you've lost, any other race could mock our white skin and get away with it, if a white man reported racism he'd get laughed at the whole time. It's also like male victims of rape, you just don't hear about it enough, a woman gets raped and the world gets mad, same applies to household violence, man beats woman everyone cares, woman beats up the man he'll get bullied for it.

Don't mistake me though, all racism, sexism and domestic violence is bad, im just saying though that the cold hard truth is people only care about the one spectrum, not all spectrums


Maybe you should shake off the pessimism and open your eyes a little. Being white absolutely does not mean you've lost and girls beating up boys are only made fun of and not taken seriously by sexists or children. Or sexist children.


I'm not being pessimistic, I'm actually an optimist, I merely stated the cold hard truth, take it or leave it
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Posted 3/21/17
I'm gonna be honest here. I am NOT and never will be proud of being African-American or just American. I'm barely even proud to be human half the time and I am not proud of myself. I guess I don't have any pride in myself.
Ejanss 
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Posted 3/21/17

JanusCascade wrote:

There actually group of Deaf people that have Deaf pride! According to them its something to do with not being able to be treated fairly because of their deafness, people would say Oh they can't be lawyer or doctor, because they're deaf! etc

But that was while back, I'm sure nowdays people treat them the same, and not seeing them less capable.


Oh yeah, that was right around the time when the Deaf community tried to interfere with a family offering to let their girl get experimental ear-implants because technology to "cure" the "rich exploration" of the girl's potentially deaf childhood was "An insult to Deaf pride!"

And anyone who thinks that bit of socially angry and minority-marketing Buttinskyism dangerously treads the line between Cultural Pride and Cultural Arrogance, just look at the parents currently trying to gauge whether their children truly want to express their TG identities, so as not to hurt Rainbow Pride...
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Posted 3/21/17 , edited 3/21/17

ninjitsuko wrote:

No, it's not really odd. "Whites" (Caucasians) do not necessarily have culture or heritage to call its own. If you look at our ancestry, you'll see that our race has spread all across the globe throughout history (Caucasians) - which, in their own right, have diversified cultures. Essentially, there isn't a "unified" culture or heritage to celebrate in contrast to that of the others you've listed (black/Asian/gay). Let's break it down a little bit:


u wat m8?

Seriously, though, are you unironically claiming that there is no such thing as a cultural heritage among caucasians? Because if you are actually suggesting that, you are an idiot. If you think that traditional Hungarian culture is anything like traditional Italian culture, or that either of the two are anywhere similar to traditional Norwegian culture, you are so wrong I don't even know where to begin.

And then you compound your self-advertised ignorance by claiming that blacks and asians DO have a "unified" culture? Are you tripping? You honestly think the Zulu savanna culture of the southern tip of the continent have the same traditional cultures as those of the Sudanese living in semiarid north Africa? Or that either are similar to the west African cultures from jungle regions (say, the Kru?)

Holy crap, dude. Go to Korea and tell them that their culture and that of Japan are one and the same, I dare you.


ninjitsuko wrote:
Each of the two races you focused on was about these races in America, more so than other locations.. each of them have created their own culture within the United States throughout their time. When compared to that of Caucasians (or "whites"), they have more of a historical culture in the US, in a manner of speaking. Our "forefathers" were Caucasians, correct?

One could easily state that any of our political holidays that focus on the country's independence (July 4th), our first president (Washington's Birthday/President's Day), and days that focus on our veterans who kept freedom alive in our country (Memorial Day, Veteran's Day) are all celebration of "Caucasian Pride".


Ok, so you're saying that minor cultural differences between American whites and American blacks amount to entirely different cultures? I don't know about that; my experience is that blacks from Georgia and whites from Georgia have more in similar to each other, culturally, than whites from Georgia have with whites from California.

President's day celebrates ALL presidents (including black ones, amazingly enough!) and veterans day and memorial day celebrate ALL veterans. There have been black veterans as far back as there has been America- to include in the American War of Independence. Black men feature prominently in the Vietnam memorial, if you have never noticed. Almost every WW2 movie made in the past thirty years have featured- often near-exclusively- black units. I'm failing to see how these are part of a distinct "white culture" and not merely "American culture".



ninjitsuko wrote:
Linguistically speaking, "white pride" has been mostly about white supremacy - versus that of a simple celebration of one's "heritage" or "culture".


This is true. It is equally true that the expression "black pride" and "black power" are fundamentally rooted in racist separatist ideology. The problem is that one is considered acceptable (or even worthy of applause) while the other is (not without justification) derided as racist.

But the REAL problem is that people don't just stop with criticizing phrases like "white pride", certain politically-correct power-mongers have expanded the vitriol to denounce even LEGITIMATE ethnic pride. People don't just get shouted down for yelling KKK jingoisms, they all too frequently get quietly (or not so quietly) ostracized for daring to share any pride in any aspect of their traditional ethnic culture. Well, if they're white, anyway. And if they dare have the temerity to stand up for themselves and declare that they should be free to have pride in their ethnic culture, they are bombarded with jeers that they are "racists", "white nationalists", "alt-right", and compared with nazis.

And THAT is why you think there is "no distinct white culture" in America: it's because for the past 30 years, whites have been terrified of showing any pride in their ethnicity because they're terrified of being labeled a racist.


ninjitsuko wrote:
When minorities are proud of their race it isn't presented in a way that they're superior to other races, just that they're indicating that they're not inferior either - that they're on equal footing with the majority. Society, in the United States, doesn't have a prevalent, historical perception of Caucasians as being inferior to other races. There's absolutely no need for a majority to state that they're "not inferior" to others because it's a socially accepted situation as they're in the majority.


Really? Are Estonian-Americans the majority? Are French-Americans the majority? What about Austrian-Americans? Italian-Americans? Greek-Americans? Because the incredibly racially charged PC culture has snuffed out their ability to show pride in their unique, individual historic cultures, while "minorities" (which are rather arbitrarily defined based on how you choose to divide up the population) are designated entire months that "belong" to the celebration of their culture.

You seem to think that only "historically oppressed" people deserve to be recognized, but fail to recognize that many of the *actual*, *disparate* cultures that comprise the ethnic background of white America were themselves oppressed historically, either in their nations of origin, in the US, or both.



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Posted 3/21/17 , edited 3/22/17

ninjitsuko wrote:

Like I said - Caucasians generally do not have a "unified culture". I actually find it hilarious to see most Americans celebrate their European ancestry when there's plenty enough history within one's own ancestry in America (at least in this generation). If I were to look at the haplogroup that I belong to I would have to celebrate being: British, Irish, French, German, Scandinavian, Swedish, Dutch, West African, Italian, Norwegian, and Finnish. We've travelled so much as a race that there are fragments of "culture" that constitutes "us" but we're not unified in any way, shape, or form - especially not modern day society (there isn't a unified "stance" as to what constitutes as "Caucasian Culture" in the United States among Caucasians, would you disagree with this? ... yes, it's a loaded question; agreeing or disagreeing would prove my point).

This never changes. Most minority races that have "pride" in what they are aren't attempting to state that "Being <insert minority race> is superior to being Caucasian". It's basically "We know Caucasians are the majority but we also have a leg to stand on!" (same goes for difference in sexuality cultures).

So I retain that my original comment still stands - just that you choose not to read what I've written; which is fine.


Ok, so now you're drawing a distinction between traditional ethnic culture, and modern American culture. You're saying that white Americans only celebrate being "American", and should not expect to celebrate their ethnic cultures, because they are simply "American".

....so why, exactly can ethnic minorities not be expected to do the same? Is being "American" not good enough for them? If it's good enough for whites, and whites only want to identify as being "American", then why stir tensions by encouraging minorities to explicitly draw a divide between whites and themselves? Wouldn't it be more useful to simply treat ethnically minority Americans as simply "American", and therefore affirm that they are welcomed into the group as a whole, rather than building up racial subdivisions? If being simply culturally "American" is an adequate self-identity for whites, what purpose is there to discourage other ethnicities from self-identifying as simply "American"?

...I mean, other than to foster identity politics divides that can be exploited for the political gain of certain political parties and special-interest groups, of course.
Posted 3/21/17

PeripheralVisionary wrote:

The concept of freedom and civil liberties might not have arisen if blacks did not greatly contribute to their own racial movements,



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolitionism





I disagree with your definition of western culture. Whose to say the Blacks or Gays or Asians or Hispanics are not contributing or maintaining it, or rather changing it, especially in the face of widespread acceptance and tolerance?



Change is not always a good thing.
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Posted 3/21/17

qualeshia3 wrote:

I'm gonna be honest here. I am NOT and never will be proud of being African-American or just American. I'm barely even proud to be human half the time and I am not proud of myself. I guess I don't have any pride in myself.


That went downhill fast.



Well if my opinion counts you should be proud of yourself. You're a curious mind.

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Posted 3/21/17

PrinceJudar wrote:


qualeshia3 wrote:

I'm gonna be honest here. I am NOT and never will be proud of being African-American or just American. I'm barely even proud to be human half the time and I am not proud of myself. I guess I don't have any pride in myself.


That went downhill fast.



Well if my opinion counts you should be proud of yourself. You're a curious mind.




I'm a sad person.
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Posted 3/21/17

qualeshia3 wrote:

I'm a sad person.


Well...I'd throw you in a mosh pit of kittens if I could.



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Posted 3/21/17

Amyas_Leigh wrote:


PeripheralVisionary wrote:

The concept of freedom and civil liberties might not have arisen if blacks did not greatly contribute to their own racial movements,



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolitionism





I disagree with your definition of western culture. Whose to say the Blacks or Gays or Asians or Hispanics are not contributing or maintaining it, or rather changing it, especially in the face of widespread acceptance and tolerance?



Change is not always a good thing.


That is the point I want to make. Cultural change has some positive effects, some negative, depending on on how you view them. Many people have contributed, especially over the last hundred years

Change is constant, a never ending fight against entropy towards some greater progression, whatever that may be.

Also, why post abolitionism? I was referring that as America grew more diverse in the last 100 years, so did the cultural landscape, where contributions from minorities steadily grew in intensity.
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Posted 3/21/17

jaragnaros wrote:


ChaoticRuins wrote:


jaragnaros wrote:

Lets face it being white means you've lost, any other race could mock our white skin and get away with it, if a white man reported racism he'd get laughed at the whole time. It's also like male victims of rape, you just don't hear about it enough, a woman gets raped and the world gets mad, same applies to household violence, man beats woman everyone cares, woman beats up the man he'll get bullied for it.

Don't mistake me though, all racism, sexism and domestic violence is bad, im just saying though that the cold hard truth is people only care about the one spectrum, not all spectrums


Maybe you should shake off the pessimism and open your eyes a little. Being white absolutely does not mean you've lost and girls beating up boys are only made fun of and not taken seriously by sexists or children. Or sexist children.


I'm not being pessimistic, I'm actually an optimist, I merely stated the cold hard truth, take it or leave it


It seems you are just bitter and pessimitstic. While there is a general truth to your statement, I do not think whites lost, or men. I mean, Trump is our president in the US you know. Lost means the fight has been over; it is not. As long as people fight for justice, it is not lost, if there has been a few lost battles. Growing bitter against bitterness dulls the edge of reason and tolerance we can use to fight it.


qualeshia3 wrote:

I'm gonna be honest here. I am NOT and never will be proud of being African-American or just American. I'm barely even proud to be human half the time and I am not proud of myself. I guess I don't have any pride in myself.


I do not see the point in pride, but no point in being ashamed either. You should be ashamed of crimes and inaction, not because you share the same species as other people acting less desirably.
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Posted 3/21/17

PeripheralVisionary wrote:

You're ignoring history and its connotations for the direct word by word definition, as in White Pride is taking pride in being white and black pride is taking pride in being black.

No, they have very different histories which cannot be ignored. It is not so much that Wikipedia is dictating that the races are different but the interpretation of what each demographic movement usually means.

If you want a better argument, I honestly believe racial pride is sort of dumb. Race and sexuality are just how you are born, they are genetic randomness at work, not accomplishments. Taking pride for others accomplishments just because you share the same "racial" identity is dumb, delusional, and often done by people who want to feel great without doing anything worthwhile, such as certain BLM racists, or white supremacy for a great deal of people. I think Civil Rights and Gay Right are more apt if anything else, whereas Whites cannot be truthfully said to have fought for their rights as a "race" in much of western civilization, because most of them did not need to. More Eastern countries might differ in recent history for its treatment of whites, Christians, etc. Reportedly, they are being killed by ISIS.


Yes because one person must be chastised and another must be praised because of something that happened 200 years ago and personally affected neither of them. Treating one race differently than another race IS RACISM! Why is white/european pride a bad thing?
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Posted 3/21/17

descloud wrote:

I find it funny those who complain "whites" cannot show pride in their heritage. Are usually the same people who have no issue whatsoever labeling other groups of people "minorities". Which comes off as a derogatory term, and is said as if they didn't make up a large population in the country they share. Much less even the military that protects that country.



Minority just means you make up a minor portion of the population. I guess statistics are racist now.

People of European heritage /white make up around 15% of the world population so we are a minority of the world pop. Now is what I said derogatory or is it ok if its about Europeans?
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Posted 3/21/17

PeripheralVisionary wrote:


They seem to be reference to different movements in general, which unfortunately, is the byproduct of how these slogans were used, and for what purpose. They are not simply a case of a German taking pride in their beer or an Asian taking pride in their monorails, but racial movements and slogans (Which the wikipedia article about white pride is about, the movement). A generalization of sorts. Marcus Garvey is a far cry from Richard Spencer after all. To ignore these generalization is to ignore history.

I could very well say "We Should Make America Great Again", and I could genuinely not be a Trump Supporter, but that would be fair grounds to assume that I am a Trump Supporter because of recent history, because most people who do say this now are Trump supporters. You're looking at words, Wikipedia is looking at the phrase.

Ignoring history for semantics does not work. It ignores the semantic of the phrase itself.

The concept of having pride in a heritage for Caucasians is not inclusive of the term "White Pride" or its movement. Pride movements often mobilized because of perceived discrimination. Hence why LGBT Pride and Black Pride are more thrown around than Asian Pride and White Pride.


You are encouraging racism by clinging to the past. Here let me show you:

Black scholarships are a great thing and help... etc. They are considered to be a good thing. Same with minority scholarships. They openly discriminate against certain people but its ok because ???????.

http://blackstudents.blacknews.com/

Someone made a white scholarship, this has happened a few times, and OUTRAGE!!!! RACISM! NAZI!! WHITE SUPREMACIST!

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=2674267

Do you notice how one group of people gets treated differently than another group of people? Do you not see the actual racism happening and progressing into the future? It's being accepted as normal.

Honestly I don't care if you have race, hair color, political view, dog lover, etc scholarships but all must be accepted or none must be accepted.
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Posted 3/21/17 , edited 3/21/17

Rujikin wrote:


PeripheralVisionary wrote:

You're ignoring history and its connotations for the direct word by word definition, as in White Pride is taking pride in being white and black pride is taking pride in being black.

No, they have very different histories which cannot be ignored. It is not so much that Wikipedia is dictating that the races are different but the interpretation of what each demographic movement usually means.

If you want a better argument, I honestly believe racial pride is sort of dumb. Race and sexuality are just how you are born, they are genetic randomness at work, not accomplishments. Taking pride for others accomplishments just because you share the same "racial" identity is dumb, delusional, and often done by people who want to feel great without doing anything worthwhile, such as certain BLM racists, or white supremacy for a great deal of people. I think Civil Rights and Gay Right are more apt if anything else, whereas Whites cannot be truthfully said to have fought for their rights as a "race" in much of western civilization, because most of them did not need to. More Eastern countries might differ in recent history for its treatment of whites, Christians, etc. Reportedly, they are being killed by ISIS.


Yes because one person must be chastised and another must be praised because of something that happened 200 years ago and personally affected neither of them. Treating one race differently than another race IS RACISM! Why is white/european pride a bad thing?


It is not racist, because that is not what Wikipedia is referring to. The act of patronage to Caucasian heritage is a larger concept that is not mutually inclusive to the term White Pride, which Wikipedia was talking about.

Those that say you should not be proud of being European, White, are indeed ignorant and racist, but this is not what Wikipedia is advocating when they defined White Pride, which instead of being the act of exercising simple pride in one's Caucasian heritage, is a slogan and a demographic movement not unlike those of the LGBT and the Blacks of decades past, but one that is determined by their actions and intentions. A major example is saying "black lives matter", and most of us do believe that, but the slogan is both the name and overly politicized term given to a recent historical movement, and that cannot be ignored anymore than the phrase "White Pride", which has its own history.

It is all generalizations, which may or may not be justified. I believe they are to an extent. The White Pride movement is generally racist, Black Lives Matter are generally beset by their own violent actions and civil unrest. When someone goes against White Pride, they may not be saying be ashamed of being white, or do not be proud, but to protest against the racism that is often exercise by those that do. It is not any different than anyone protesting Black Lives Matters is saying that the lives of blacks are meaningless. It is a criticism of those specific movements, and not the banal, peaceful ideals they claim to rally under.

I mean, Wikipedia has not defined white pride as an internal sense of pride, but a slogan, rather than a general stance, with BLM having their own page, separate from the Black Pride movement.

This is because of how the history of those movements transpire, which redefines the words, and how society views them together as a phrase. Because of past actions and how their intentions were perceived.
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