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Post Reply Turkiish Voters Vote To Pass Constitutional Referendum
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Posted 4/18/17 , edited 4/18/17
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/apr/17/donald-trump-erdogan-turkey-referendum-congratulations

The people of Turkey voted to change key facets of their constitution. It was a close vote, but it passed. They're going through the process of certifying the vote, now.

They campaigned for months on this issue. They had plenty of TV ads, news paper opinion pieces, political debates, etc. So, I'm sure they understood what they were voting for.

This reminds me of Valenzuela.... You know how that turned out...

I just hope this works out for the Turkish people....

So, President Trump called to congratulate the Turkish president. They talked about fighting terrorism, and stuff...

I know some of you are gonna condemn President Trump for congratulating their president and all..., but this was a national referendum....

The Turkish people voted for this.... It's what they wanted.

What else could President Trump do? Do you think it would have been wise for him to condemn the vote and call just over half of the population of Turkey foolish?

That's what some of the EU leaders are doing, but in doing so, they are saying that the Turkish people do not have the right to vote the way they did.... I think that's worse.
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Posted 4/18/17 , edited 4/18/17
A pretty slim majority, but it is their choice. We have rules against mob tyranny here in the US. We are a democratic republic. We elect representatives on Local, State, and National scales. Hell, to confirm Gorsuch, the lawmakers had to bypass the needed majority with a simply of 51% (51 Senators out of 100) to actually confirm him. We do not even allow Parties to mob rule to an extent, or at least try to.


Of course, State referendums are a thing.



DeadlyOats wrote:

I know some of you are gonna condemn President Trump for congratulating their president and all..., but this was a national referendum....

The Turkish people voted for this.... It's what they wanted.

What else could President Trump do? Do you think it would have been wise for him to condemn the vote and call just over half of the population of Turkey foolish?

That's what some of the EU leaders are doing, but in doing so, they are saying that the Turkish people do not have the right to vote the way they did.... I think that's worse.


He may have question the legitimate nature, something doubtful in some places of increasing authoritarian Governments. US has one of the least corrupt Democratic processes in the world.

Keep in mind place like Chechnya have allowed things to happen purely because they lack a concept of encompassing rights. Gays deserved to be killed anyway, according the Muslim majority I believe, which is what makes the reports of mass killings reasonable to believe.

Myanmar is no different. It has been suggested Nobel Prize Winner Aung San Suu Kyi, one of the few democratically elected leaders in said country, is withholding criticism on how the Myanmar Government on its treatment of the ethnic Rohingyas, because hatred of them is held by the minority, and the fact she will lose support quickly.

And to invoke Godwin's Law, Hitler was amazingly popular during his early years. This is in face of widespread indoctrination and a complete lack of political rights, leading Hitler to execute thousands of political opponents, including teenagers.

https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007188

In particular, the White Rose were turned in by a janitor after spreading leaflets, many of them ill received by other students.

A complete democracy is essentially a form of anarchy to the forefathers I imagine, one that leads to chaos, where referendums are a bit rare.
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Posted 4/18/17

DeadlyOats wrote:
The Turkish people voted for this.... It's what they wanted.


By 1.4%. If you're talking about shifting a country towards a dictatorship should at least net more than the margin of error.

And yes, Trump really should not be congratulating Ergodan. But its not like Trump has any awareness of bad optics in politics.
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Posted 4/18/17
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Good quote. Precisely.

Remember that, every cheers are given to leftists when they shut down conservatives who speak at university campuses. Or when leftists advocate that conservative ideals are all racist, just because the conservatives do not agree with leftist ideals. Remember that when leftists use labels, threats, attacks, and bullying to shut down and silence conservatives in order to marginalize and push to the side the people who espouse conservative ideals across the nation. Remember that when leftists call to government to codify limitations in free speech in order to silence conservatives - they way they do in Sweden.
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Posted 4/18/17

DeadlyOats wrote:



Good quote. Precisely.

Remember that, every cheers are given to leftists when they shut down conservatives who speak at university campuses. Or when leftists advocate that conservative ideals are all racist, just because the conservatives do not agree with leftist ideals. Remember that when leftists use labels, threats, attacks, and bullying to shut down and silence conservatives in order to marginalize and push to the side the people who espouse conservative ideals across the nation. Remember that when leftists call to government to codify limitations in free speech in order to silence conservatives - they way they do in Sweden.


Not sure what that has to do with the thread? Authoritarianism and mob rule is the tool of oppressor of both sides, and often is the enemy of supporters on those sides as well.
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Posted 4/18/17 , edited 4/18/17
I don't agree that he should stay in power but I guess he's powerful enough to keep the country in 'order' - until he decides it's time for dictatorship
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Posted 4/18/17
Hey if they can past the vote without any bloodshed then I would have called it a success. Yeah it's a power grab but could you imagine the refugee crisis if Turkey broke out into war?
qwueri 
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Posted 4/18/17

DeadlyOats wrote:

Good quote. Precisely.

Remember that, every cheers are given to leftists when they shut down conservatives who speak at university campuses. Or when leftists advocate that conservative ideals are all racist, just because the conservatives do not agree with leftist ideals. Remember that when leftists use labels, threats, attacks, and bullying to shut down and silence conservatives in order to marginalize and push to the side the people who espouse conservative ideals across the nation. Remember that when leftists call to government to codify limitations in free speech in order to silence conservatives - they way they do in Sweden.


You're equating protests, name calling, and some people being general fuckwits to a democratic government crumbling into authoritarian rule. Congratulations, I think that's the most partisan fueled nonsense tangent I've seen in awhile.
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Posted 4/18/17
They voted the way they voted. They got what they wanted. It's their country. Who are you to say they shouldn't get what they want? Isn't that what it means to be a democracy? The right for the people to peacefully change the form of their government if they were unhappy with how things were going?

The difference is that in Turkey, they achieved change by voting in a referendum, whereas in Berkeley, Antifa is attempting to achieve change through silencing, intimidation, and violence.

Turkey's constitution has been changed through a legitimate process, and it must be respected, even if we don't agree with it. Hey! If they don't like it, they can always hold another referendum....
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Posted 4/18/17

qwueri wrote:


DeadlyOats wrote:

Good quote. Precisely.

Remember that, every cheers are given to leftists when they shut down conservatives who speak at university campuses. Or when leftists advocate that conservative ideals are all racist, just because the conservatives do not agree with leftist ideals. Remember that when leftists use labels, threats, attacks, and bullying to shut down and silence conservatives in order to marginalize and push to the side the people who espouse conservative ideals across the nation. Remember that when leftists call to government to codify limitations in free speech in order to silence conservatives - they way they do in Sweden.


You're equating protests, name calling, and some people being general fuckwits to a democratic government crumbling into authoritarian rule. Congratulations, I think that's the most partisan fueled nonsense tangent I've seen in awhile.



PeripheralVisionary wrote:


DeadlyOats wrote:



Good quote. Precisely.

Remember that, every cheers are given to leftists when they shut down conservatives who speak at university campuses. Or when leftists advocate that conservative ideals are all racist, just because the conservatives do not agree with leftist ideals. Remember that when leftists use labels, threats, attacks, and bullying to shut down and silence conservatives in order to marginalize and push to the side the people who espouse conservative ideals across the nation. Remember that when leftists call to government to codify limitations in free speech in order to silence conservatives - they way they do in Sweden.


Not sure what that has to do with the thread? Authoritarianism and mob rule is the tool of oppressor of both sides, and often is the enemy of supporters on those sides as well.


I'm talking about your thunderous applause every time you cheer and support leftists who do the things I listed above.

"With thunderous applause democracy dies." "With thunderous applause leftists supports the tearing down of democratic ideals."
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Posted 4/18/17 , edited 4/18/17
So, let me get this straight.

You guys are arguing over which is more important - maintaining a democratic law structure that protects the people from dictatorship (even if it's not what they want), in the name of democracy, vs. supporting a democratic vote outcome that the people want (even if it's bad for them), in the name of democracy.

Yeah, that's democracy. It's whatever you want it to be. Maybe get over it and find a better way of discussing things, not some concept you can warp into whatever it is you want it to be.

Then again, that's a lost concept in the facebook era.
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Posted 4/18/17

DeadlyOats wrote:


qwueri wrote:


DeadlyOats wrote:

Good quote. Precisely.

Remember that, every cheers are given to leftists when they shut down conservatives who speak at university campuses. Or when leftists advocate that conservative ideals are all racist, just because the conservatives do not agree with leftist ideals. Remember that when leftists use labels, threats, attacks, and bullying to shut down and silence conservatives in order to marginalize and push to the side the people who espouse conservative ideals across the nation. Remember that when leftists call to government to codify limitations in free speech in order to silence conservatives - they way they do in Sweden.


You're equating protests, name calling, and some people being general fuckwits to a democratic government crumbling into authoritarian rule. Congratulations, I think that's the most partisan fueled nonsense tangent I've seen in awhile.



PeripheralVisionary wrote:


DeadlyOats wrote:



Good quote. Precisely.

Remember that, every cheers are given to leftists when they shut down conservatives who speak at university campuses. Or when leftists advocate that conservative ideals are all racist, just because the conservatives do not agree with leftist ideals. Remember that when leftists use labels, threats, attacks, and bullying to shut down and silence conservatives in order to marginalize and push to the side the people who espouse conservative ideals across the nation. Remember that when leftists call to government to codify limitations in free speech in order to silence conservatives - they way they do in Sweden.


Not sure what that has to do with the thread? Authoritarianism and mob rule is the tool of oppressor of both sides, and often is the enemy of supporters on those sides as well.


I'm talking about your thunderous applause every time you cheer and support leftists who do the things I listed above.

"With thunderous applause democracy dies." "With thunderous applause leftists supports the tearing down of democratic ideals."


Not sure about myself, but I do not think it is fair to say of others. In any way, I have to agree with Quweri that this is unrelated to the topic. Turkey is not America or Europe. Much of their conservative ideals derived from Islamic beliefs, and the President can hardly be said to be left wing.
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Posted 4/18/17

qwueri wrote:



You're equating protests, name calling, and some people being general fuckwits to a democratic government crumbling into authoritarian rule. Congratulations, I think that's the most partisan fueled nonsense tangent I've seen in awhile.


Welcome to a thread created by DeadlyOats mate.


That being said even as a Centralist I have to disagree with the chocies made by Turkey. Just because people want something does not mean they need it
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Posted 4/18/17 , edited 4/18/17

DeadlyOats wrote:

They voted the way they voted. They got what they wanted. It's their country. Who are you to say they shouldn't get what they want? Isn't that what it means to be a democracy? The right for the people to peacefully change the form of their government if they were unhappy with how things were going?

The difference is that in Turkey, they achieved change by voting in a referendum, whereas in Berkeley, Antifa is attempting to achieve change through silencing, intimidation, and violence.

Turkey's constitution has been changed through a legitimate process, and it must be respected, even if we don't agree with it. Hey! If they don't like it, they can always hold another referendum....





LavenderMintRose wrote:

So, let me get this straight.

You guys are arguing over which is more important - maintaining a democratic law structure that protects the people from dictatorship (even if it's not what they want), in the name of democracy, vs. supporting a democratic vote outcome that the people want (even if it's bad for them), in the name of democracy.

Yeah, that's democracy. It's whatever you want it to be. Maybe get over it and find a better way of discussing things, not some concept you can warp into whatever it is you want it to be.

Then again, that's a lost concept in the facebook era.


One of the reasoning that arisen for the means of the current US Government of a republic is because of governing through mob mentality, dubbed mobocracy, something that help gives fear to minorities or the reality of becoming one, which is one of the stronger argument against direct democracy. I am not sure anyone is arguing about that, and I believe I was not...hopefully. I do not think the process is no more morally wrong or morally good then the ends it hopes to achieve, but it raises questions regarding a practical precedence. Populism is often disparaging because it gives into this mentality of giving people what they want, then riding on popularity to achieve ends that depend on who the person is, rather than what the policy, among other things, both how a Stalinist communism and a Fascist dictatorship became possible. Government should be more than a simple case of majority vote. Even a slight majority is not enough for some processes, and some things should never be on the table, such as the genocidal fate possibly awaiting the Rohingyas. Entirely possible because of the cultural view in the country on that certain ethnic group.

However, it begs question between a tyrant and a benevolent king, both of which are granted more power as monarchs, and is a more direct way of governing. In essence, usually a good monarchy is better than a good democracy, but a bad monarchy is worst than a bad democracy.

Of course, none of this seems bad right now, but the possibilities are something to be considered. You are right, we must respect choice. If people chose Donald Trump as president, then he should be president. If people choose to give more liberties to the a head of state for security, so be it.

It is not the power of the people. It is power of the majority. Appropriate sometimes, not appropriate in others.
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