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Post Reply Turkiish Voters Vote To Pass Constitutional Referendum
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Posted 4/18/17
In the end. They voted. All we can do is watch and see how it goes for them. What are we gonna do, ask the UN to impose sanctions on Turkey for voting to set themselves up for a dictatorship?

I think rather than alienating the, now more powerful, Turkish president, EU leaders need to just keep pressure on him to do the right thing, and not go down that dark path. Turkey is a key member of NATO, AND a key ally against ISIS, so we don't want to alienate them.

I just had a thought. Some of the EU leaders were condemning the Turkish people for choosing their destiny, saying that any hopes Turkey had for joining the EU had just evaporated away. Maybe these EU leaders did Turkey a favor. The EU is a mess. Turkey is better off on its own.
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Posted 4/18/17 , edited 4/18/17

DeadlyOats wrote:

I'm talking about your thunderous applause every time you cheer and support leftists who do the things I listed above.

"With thunderous applause democracy dies." "With thunderous applause leftists supports the tearing down of democratic ideals."


Someone saying mean things at a protest or on twitter or on television is not 'tearing down democratic ideals'. Neither is it relevant to the mess that is Turkey; except maybe in the loosest sense of some kind of global political divide between right and left. Maybe.


DeadlyOats wrote:

I just had a thought. Some of the EU leaders were condemning the Turkish people for choosing their destiny, saying that any hopes Turkey had for joining the EU had just evaporated away. Maybe these EU leaders did Turkey a favor. The EU is a mess. Turkey is better off on its own.


And I'm sure they'll be well prepared to fall back on Russia next time a coup d'etat occurs.
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Posted 4/18/17
I think it is a tremendously flawed system which allows such changes to occur by such a small margin (and I even question the decision to put such a decision solely on the citizenry). There is a reason the US has such a sturdy process for amending the constitution, requiring a 2/3 majority in both the Senate and House in addition to the ratification process.

A democracy is only as strong as the systems protecting it. That this could (seemingly) happen so easily shows that Turkey's democracy wasn't very strong in the first place.

What should the US have done? Well, after we have gotten to this stage, not much. What we shouldn't have done is congratulated Turkey. I think we need to at least make a show of upholding our democratic ideals and speak about the dangers of throwing them by the wayside. Additionally, I do think the US should reach out to other countries in precarious positions and try to aid them in strengthening their democracy so such things can't happen in the future.
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Posted 4/18/17 , edited 4/18/17

qwueri wrote:
And I'm sure they'll be well prepared to fall back on Russia next time a coup d'etat occurs.


Throwing bricks, M-80 firecrackers, beating with bats and bottles, in order to intimidate and silence - is. That the municipal government of Berkeley via the Berkeley police department, and the governor of California, through his silence, have done nothing, is tacit approval of the violence being used to silence the conservatives. Are they waiting for force President Trump to step in? This is a local law enforcement issue, that is being grossly mismanaged. The governor has an obligation to pressure the municipality to do something. But nothing....

Or on the United States. Trump's call congratulating him, did not alienate Turkey from the U.S. Trump's public reminders that Turkey is vital to NATO, does not alienate Turkey.
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Posted 4/18/17

sundin13 wrote:

I think it is a tremendously flawed system which allows such changes to occur by such a small margin (and I even question the decision to put such a decision solely on the citizenry). There is a reason the US has such a sturdy process for amending the constitution, requiring a 2/3 majority in both the Senate and House in addition to the ratification process.

A democracy is only as strong as the systems protecting it. That this could (seemingly) happen so easily shows that Turkey's democracy wasn't very strong in the first place.

What should the US have done? Well, after we have gotten to this stage, not much. What we shouldn't have done is congratulated Turkey. I think we need to at least make a show of upholding our democratic ideals and speak about the dangers of throwing them by the wayside. Additionally, I do think the US should reach out to other countries in precarious positions and try to aid them in strengthening their democracy so such things can't happen in the future.


The time for that should have been during their debates. Not just the White House, but the EU was also quiet. They didn't throw in their two cents, warning of the dangers of granting too much power to one individual. If more voices had spoken, maybe the referendum would have failed.

Yeah. Their constitution made it too easy to throw their democracy out.
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Posted 4/18/17

DeadlyOats wrote:


sundin13 wrote:

I think it is a tremendously flawed system which allows such changes to occur by such a small margin (and I even question the decision to put such a decision solely on the citizenry). There is a reason the US has such a sturdy process for amending the constitution, requiring a 2/3 majority in both the Senate and House in addition to the ratification process.

A democracy is only as strong as the systems protecting it. That this could (seemingly) happen so easily shows that Turkey's democracy wasn't very strong in the first place.

What should the US have done? Well, after we have gotten to this stage, not much. What we shouldn't have done is congratulated Turkey. I think we need to at least make a show of upholding our democratic ideals and speak about the dangers of throwing them by the wayside. Additionally, I do think the US should reach out to other countries in precarious positions and try to aid them in strengthening their democracy so such things can't happen in the future.


The time for that should have been during their debates. Not just the White House, but the EU was also quiet. They didn't throw in their two cents, warning of the dangers of granting too much power to one individual. If more voices had spoken, maybe the referendum would have failed.

Yeah. Their constitution made it too easy to throw their democracy out.


I'd say it should've been way before even the debates. It should've been a long time ago, before they were in this position. If they've already gotten to the point where the leader is making a power grab, they probably aren't going to listen. That is why we (and everybody who can) should work with other democracies now, before things really start going downhill.
qwueri 
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Posted 4/18/17 , edited 4/18/17

DeadlyOats wrote:

Throwing bricks, M-80 firecrackers, beating with bats and bottles, in order to intimidate and silence - is. That the municipal government of Berkeley via the Berkeley police department, and the governor of California, through his silence, have done nothing, is tacit approval of the violence being used to silence the conservatives. Are they waiting for force President Trump to step in? This is a local law enforcement issue, that is being grossly mismanaged. The governor has an obligation to pressure the municipality to do something. But nothing....

Or on the United States. Trump's call congratulating him, did not alienate Turkey from the U.S. Trump's public reminders that Turkey is vital to NATO, does not alienate Turkey.


http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2017/04/17/berkeley-police-release-names-of-people-arrested-at-trump-protests/
The only way Berkeley would be anywhere relatable to Turkey's situation is if the governor started jailing anyone who talked with riot participants on facebook, cracking down on the press, and moving to consolidate power to his governorship.
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Posted 4/18/17

sundin13 wrote:


DeadlyOats wrote:


sundin13 wrote:

I think it is a tremendously flawed system which allows such changes to occur by such a small margin (and I even question the decision to put such a decision solely on the citizenry). There is a reason the US has such a sturdy process for amending the constitution, requiring a 2/3 majority in both the Senate and House in addition to the ratification process.

A democracy is only as strong as the systems protecting it. That this could (seemingly) happen so easily shows that Turkey's democracy wasn't very strong in the first place.

What should the US have done? Well, after we have gotten to this stage, not much. What we shouldn't have done is congratulated Turkey. I think we need to at least make a show of upholding our democratic ideals and speak about the dangers of throwing them by the wayside. Additionally, I do think the US should reach out to other countries in precarious positions and try to aid them in strengthening their democracy so such things can't happen in the future.


The time for that should have been during their debates. Not just the White House, but the EU was also quiet. They didn't throw in their two cents, warning of the dangers of granting too much power to one individual. If more voices had spoken, maybe the referendum would have failed.

Yeah. Their constitution made it too easy to throw their democracy out.


I'd say it should've been way before even the debates. It should've been a long time ago, before they were in this position. If they've already gotten to the point where the leader is making a power grab, they probably aren't going to listen. That is why we (and everybody who can) should work with other democracies now, before things really start going downhill.


That sounds like you'd like NGO's like Soros' organizations to interfere in internal affairs. I prefer a free and open press, and a free and open Internet. Free and open press to report it, and free and open Internet that doesn't corral net surfers to specific regions.

I agree, with you, that something should have been done, but "getting involved in other democracies" to prevent what happed in Turkey is too "Globalist" for me.

We didn't even know that Turkey was even thinking about a referendum until days before the vote took place. That reflects a failure of the press. Combine that with the silence of EU and other Western leaders to warn the Turkish people of the dangers of concentrating that much power in an individual, and you get what happened.
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Posted 4/18/17 , edited 4/18/17

DeadlyOats wrote:


sundin13 wrote:

I'd say it should've been way before even the debates. It should've been a long time ago, before they were in this position. If they've already gotten to the point where the leader is making a power grab, they probably aren't going to listen. That is why we (and everybody who can) should work with other democracies now, before things really start going downhill.


That sounds like you'd like NGO's like Soros' organizations to interfere in internal affairs. I prefer a free and open press, and a free and open Internet. Free and open press to report it, and free and open Internet that doesn't corral net surfers to specific regions.

I agree, with you, that something should have been done, but "getting involved in other democracies" to prevent what happed in Turkey is too "Globalist" for me.

We didn't even know that Turkey was even thinking about a referendum until days before the vote took place. That reflects a failure of the press. Combine that with the silence of EU and other Western leaders to warn the Turkish people of the dangers of concentrating that much power in an individual, and you get what happened.


Interfere? All I'm suggesting is for the US to speak to other countries about how to strengthen their democracy.

Don't get crazy on me here. We were having a nice conversation.
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Posted 4/18/17

sundin13 wrote:


DeadlyOats wrote:


sundin13 wrote:

I'd say it should've been way before even the debates. It should've been a long time ago, before they were in this position. If they've already gotten to the point where the leader is making a power grab, they probably aren't going to listen. That is why we (and everybody who can) should work with other democracies now, before things really start going downhill.


That sounds like you'd like NGO's like Soros' organizations to interfere in internal affairs. I prefer a free and open press, and a free and open Internet. Free and open press to report it, and free and open Internet that doesn't corral net surfers to specific regions.

I agree, with you, that something should have been done, but "getting involved in other democracies" to prevent what happed in Turkey is too "Globalist" for me.

We didn't even know that Turkey was even thinking about a referendum until days before the vote took place. That reflects a failure of the press. Combine that with the silence of EU and other Western leaders to warn the Turkish people of the dangers of concentrating that much power in an individual, and you get what happened.


Interfere? All I'm suggesting is for the US to speak to other countries about how to strengthen their democracy.

Don't get crazy on me here. We were having a nice conversation.


The U.S. State Department, and other EU governmental agencies, offering advice to their government. That's good. But NGO's? I see them as destabilizing entities. George Soros' NGO's have really brought a lot of harm to the world. That, "(and everybody who can)" line made me think NGO's.

You shouldn't over react over the use of a word. If you needed clarification, you only needed to ask.
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Posted 4/18/17 , edited 4/18/17

DeadlyOats wrote:

The U.S. State Department, and other EU governmental agencies, offering advice to their government. That's good. But NGO's? I see them as destabilizing entities. George Soros' NGO's have really brought a lot of harm to the world. That, "(and everybody who can)" line made me think NGO's.

You shouldn't over react over the use of a word. If you needed clarification, you only needed to ask.


"You shouldn't over react over the use of a word. If you needed clarification, you only needed to ask"

You took the words right out of my mouth.
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Posted 4/18/17

sundin13 wrote:


DeadlyOats wrote:

The U.S. State Department, and other EU governmental agencies, offering advice to their government. That's good. But NGO's? I see them as destabilizing entities. George Soros' NGO's have really brought a lot of harm to the world. That, "(and everybody who can)" line made me think NGO's.

You shouldn't over react over the use of a word. If you needed clarification, you only needed to ask.


"You shouldn't over react over the use of a word. If you needed clarification, you only needed to ask"

You took the words right out of my mouth.


I didn't suggest that you were crazy because (I thought) you used a concept that I disagreed with. You, on the other hand, reacted with suggesting that I was crazy, because I used the word "interfere." That's what I was referring to.
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Posted 4/18/17

DeadlyOats wrote:


sundin13 wrote:


DeadlyOats wrote:

The U.S. State Department, and other EU governmental agencies, offering advice to their government. That's good. But NGO's? I see them as destabilizing entities. George Soros' NGO's have really brought a lot of harm to the world. That, "(and everybody who can)" line made me think NGO's.

You shouldn't over react over the use of a word. If you needed clarification, you only needed to ask.


"You shouldn't over react over the use of a word. If you needed clarification, you only needed to ask"

You took the words right out of my mouth.


I didn't suggest that you were crazy because (I thought) you used a concept that I disagreed with. You, on the other hand, reacted with suggesting that I was crazy, because I used the word "interfere." That's what I was referring to.


I'll apologize for saying you were acting crazy. Sorry. What I was trying to say, was that you are quick to jump into these talking points. You've done it a few times in this thread alone. You see something that vaguely reminds you of one of these talking points and you start tumbling down the rabbit hole. I don't think bringing every conversation to the evils of liberalism is conducive to good discussion.

Lets just stay on topic and talk about Turkey, not Soros or Berkeley.
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Posted 4/18/17

DeadlyOats wrote:
That reflects a failure of the press. Combine that with the silence of EU and other Western leaders to warn the Turkish people of the dangers of concentrating that much power in an individual, and you get what happened.


I live in Germany and neither the press nor our politicians were silent about it. We've had discussions about it since months.
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Posted 4/18/17
First and only warning, if you post in response to someone do so in a friendly polite way. Crunchyroll forums is not the place for personal arguments and bickering.

It is completely okay to disagree, debate, maybe even sort of argue, as long as it remains civil. If you have to insult someone to make your point, it isn't civil anymore. Please bear that in mind.
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