Post Reply Executive Order Signed Ordering Rule Changes for H-1B Work Visas
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Posted 4/18/17
Plus changes that require government construction projects requiring that American made materials have to be used.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/apr/18/trump-order-would-target-high-skilled-worker-visa-/

So, Americans in the tech industry won't be laid off after training their cheaper foreign worker replacements anymore. Let's see how it all pans out...


Trump is heading Tuesday to Kenosha, Wisconsin, where he plans to sign an order dubbed “Buy American, Hire American,”

The White House said the program is currently undercutting American workers by bringing in cheaper labor and said some tech companies are using it to hire large numbers of workers and drive down wages.

Administration officials said the order also seeks to strengthen requirements that American-made products be used in certain federal construction projects, as well as in various federal transportation grant-funded projects. The officials said the commerce secretary will review how to close loopholes in enforcing the existing rules and provide recommendations to the president.

The order specifically asks the secretary to review waivers of these rules that exist in free-trade agreements. The administration said that if the waivers are not benefiting the United States they will be “renegotiated or revoked.”


That's what I'm talking about!
Posted 4/18/17

DeadlyOats wrote:
So, Americans in the tech industry won't be laid off after training their cheaper foreign worker replacements anymore. Let's see how it all pans out...


As someone who works in the tech industry, this is a pretty bad move on Trump's part. H-1B visas still require the individual to either have a bachelor's or master's degree in order to qualify for it correctly. The OES Wage Levels are used to determine the minimum wage for those who are applying for an H-1B visa - which means that those who only Level 1 (entry level) are usually rejected right out of the door. With this in mind, it also means that Level II (qualified with a bachelor's degree or higher) has to pay a minimum of $50,000 USD per year. Tech companies (non-agricultural positions) have to hire Level III (bachelor's and x amount of years of experience) or Level IV (fully competent, master's degree is ideal, and they are hired at a director/supervisor, senior, or executive level).

Regarding the quote I took from your post: it also won't stop people from having to train their cheaper counterparts. The "loophole" that has been used for decades (as there are already regulations that encourage hiring citizens of America already) is that the company registers an LLC or INC over in the country where they're hiring their most amount of people. This means that they can hire employees to this foreign branch of their company and use them as remote workers. Essentially, this EO will be a waste of time other than losing some pretty skilled workers and students from staying in America.
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Posted 4/18/17
So no Trump products since none are made in the USA

America first unless it effects my bottom line
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Posted 4/18/17

ninjitsuko wrote:


DeadlyOats wrote:
So, Americans in the tech industry won't be laid off after training their cheaper foreign worker replacements anymore. Let's see how it all pans out...


As someone who works in the tech industry, this is a pretty bad move on Trump's part. H-1B visas still require the individual to either have a bachelor's or master's degree in order to qualify for it correctly. The OES Wage Levels are used to determine the minimum wage for those who are applying for an H-1B visa - which means that those who only Level 1 (entry level) are usually rejected right out of the door. With this in mind, it also means that Level II (qualified with a bachelor's degree or higher) has to pay a minimum of $50,000 USD per year. Tech companies (non-agricultural positions) have to hire Level III (bachelor's and x amount of years of experience) or Level IV (fully competent, master's degree is ideal, and they are hired at a director/supervisor, senior, or executive level).

Regarding the quote I took from your post: it also won't stop people from having to train their cheaper counterparts. The "loophole" that has been used for decades (as there are already regulations that encourage hiring citizens of America already) is that the company registers an LLC or INC over in the country where they're hiring their most amount of people. This means that they can hire employees to this foreign branch of their company and use them as remote workers. Essentially, this EO will be a waste of time other than losing some pretty skilled workers and students from staying in America.


I also work as a programmer, so I'll add: Often times, especially in India and China, those bachelor's degrees in CS are worth about as much as a language certificate is C++ or some other six-month certification. Agreed about the loophole, though. It's all about cheap labor.
Posted 4/18/17

karatecowboy wrote:
I also work as a programmer, so I'll add: Often times, especially in India and China, those bachelor's degrees in CS are worth about as much as a language certificate is C++ or some other six-month certification. Agreed about the loophole, though. It's all about cheap labor.


I will agree with this statement. However, a lot of the people who are looking for tech jobs in America are foreigners who got their degrees from universities here in the US nowadays. They would still fall under H-1B visa requirements, which is why I think this is a terrible idea. There should be another visa that would allow for students of American universities to apply under similar requirements as the H-1B visa. I have a fair number of friends (and co-workers) that are going to be impacted by this kind of legislation. They studied six to eight years at American universities, hoping to pursue their own "American Dream™" - but these kinds of decisions will result in significant decrease in students from foreign countries (which is where universities do make a significant amount of money from).
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Posted 4/18/17

ninjitsuko wrote:


karatecowboy wrote:
I also work as a programmer, so I'll add: Often times, especially in India and China, those bachelor's degrees in CS are worth about as much as a language certificate is C++ or some other six-month certification. Agreed about the loophole, though. It's all about cheap labor.


I will agree with this statement. However, a lot of the people who are looking for tech jobs in America are foreigners who got their degrees from universities here in the US nowadays. They would still fall under H-1B visa requirements, which is why I think this is a terrible idea. There should be another visa that would allow for students of American universities to apply under similar requirements as the H-1B visa. I have a fair number of friends (and co-workers) that are going to be impacted by this kind of legislation. They studied six to eight years at American universities, hoping to pursue their own "American Dream™" - but these kinds of decisions will result in significant decrease in students from foreign countries (which is where universities do make a significant amount of money from).


But then that means there's a loophole to overstay their student visas..... Or rather to convert their student visas into H-1B visas....

Let them go back to their home countries, and apply their skills there. If they really want to come back to the U.S., then let them apply for a visa normally. Not find a way to skip in line....
Posted 4/18/17
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Posted 4/18/17

ninjitsuko wrote:

As someone who works in the tech industry, this is a pretty bad move on Trump's part. H-1B visas still require the individual to either have a bachelor's or master's degree in order to qualify for it correctly. The OES Wage Levels are used to determine the minimum wage for those who are applying for an H-1B visa - which means that those who only Level 1 (entry level) are usually rejected right out of the door. With this in mind, it also means that Level II (qualified with a bachelor's degree or higher) has to pay a minimum of $50,000 USD per year. Tech companies (non-agricultural positions) have to hire Level III (bachelor's and x amount of years of experience) or Level IV (fully competent, master's degree is ideal, and they are hired at a director/supervisor, senior, or executive level).

Regarding the quote I took from your post: it also won't stop people from having to train their cheaper counterparts. The "loophole" that has been used for decades (as there are already regulations that encourage hiring citizens of America already) is that the company registers an LLC or INC over in the country where they're hiring their most amount of people. This means that they can hire employees to this foreign branch of their company and use them as remote workers. Essentially, this EO will be a waste of time other than losing some pretty skilled workers and students from staying in America.


I've been trying to figure out what this EO actually does. Are you saying that entry level positions are going to be harder to get for foreigners here on visas?

And I don't really understand the point of your second paragraph. So a company will now have more trouble hiring people in America - so are you implying that they will just take their business to another country, register an LLC or INC, and remotely do their business from there? Is there no incentive to hiring American workers in this field at all?

My hope is that the requirements to enter these fields are reduced and more tech schools are introduced. College is a scam and for jobs in the tech field I don't believe a college education should be required for entry level positions
Posted 4/18/17

DeadlyOats wrote:
But then that means there's a loophole to overstay their student visas..... Or rather to convert their student visas into H-1B visas....

Let them go back to their home countries, and apply their skills there. If they really want to come back to the U.S., then let them apply for a visa normally. Not find a way to skip in line....


That's not how the visa program works in America, just to let you know. Most students who have come to America as students will find a job (which they're entitled to do so while on a student visa, with stipulations) - once they graduate, they tend to apply for the H-1B visa. The H-1B visa doesn't let them "skip in line" - in fact, it's actually a lottery-type system. So let me break it down as simple as I can make it:

- There is a limit for how many master's degree applicants they'll accept per year (20,000 will be processed)
- There is a limit for how many bachelor's degree applications they'll accept per year (65,000 will be processed - 6,800 of these are reserved for applicants from Chile or Singapore)
- Applicants can pay for "premium processing" for an additional $1,225 - this doesn't give them any increase chance of being selected in the lottery, but it will (in most cases) let them know sooner if they have or not.
- Once an individuals' application has been processed and accepted, they assign each applicant a number.
- After a certain quota of applicants have been met (random each fiscal year), they run these numbers through a computer-generated process (based off of an algorithm that is unknown to the public).
- If the applicant's number is chosen, they are given an H-1B visa.

Even if my theoretical student-to-employee visa were to be implemented, it would follow similar guidelines (whereas there would be caps and a "lottery" system to decide who actually gets the visa). Also, H-1B may be the most common method of getting qualified individuals into America... but (as always, there's a caveat) - in smaller startup companies, they've been alerted to the possibility of a GOP-heavy government restricting this specific visa. Because of this warning, they've started applying for L-1A visas (managers and executive-level employees only). This requires one year working within the United States and an additional year working in their home country, for the same company with the same title. This falls into the loophole I had discussed more so than H-1B.


Tethealla wrote:
I've been trying to figure out what this EO actually does. Are you saying that entry level positions are going to be harder to get for foreigners here on visas?


As of this moment, nobody actually knows what the Executive Order is fully going to cause to occur in the industries that rely heavily upon H-1B visas. With a bill having been introduced to the Senate (S.180), it seems that the minimum impact will be to raise the minimum wage for those on H-1B visas to $120,000 a year. Trump's EO basically states that H-1B applicants should "include only the most skilled and highest-paid applicants and should never, ever be used to replace American workers." It doesn't actually change the policy for H-1B visas - yet. But the underlining feeling as to what his intentions for this EO is to keep it broad so the GOP can change the policy at the Congress level.


Tethealla wrote:
And I don't really understand the point of your second paragraph. So a company will now have more trouble hiring people in America - so are you implying that they will just take their business to another country, register an LLC or INC, and remotely do their business from there? Is there no incentive to hiring American workers in this field at all?

My hope is that the requirements to enter these fields are reduced and more tech schools are introduced. College is a scam and for jobs in the tech field I don't believe a college education should be required for entry level positions


This is a technique that companies already use, not something they'll do in the future. It's easy to register a remote/foreign LLC/INC as a sister company in a foreign country, hire them there, and have those programmers work for them specifically at their office in said location (India or China, for example). This means that those workers never have to get a visa because they're legally working for a company in their own country, while the company in America only pays their cheap labor and cheap fees of having a small office housed in a foreign country.

I think people feel that because it's "so much cheaper" to pay for foreign employees that they would never find the incentive for hiring an American citizen (just like how some say about the wage gap that "if women were paid less, then all companies would hire only women"). This isn't necessarily the case. The main issue is that there's simply not enough Americans that are qualified to fill in these positions that they're hiring foreigners for H-1B visas.

The US simply doesn't put out enough of these qualified individuals to meet the demand. Tech has risen so quickly that there's usually just not enough US citizens that have the degrees and knowledge/skill to undertake the position. I've found that large corporations love hiring Americans (especially in offices in America). I've worked for Microsoft and Red Hat - both whom have a significant of foreigners on visas working at their offices. By startups and smaller companies, I'm told often told that I'm overqualified for any position they need to fill. By larger companies, they're shocked that I'm applying for work seeing as I'm one of the only American applicants that qualified. It's a mixed bag and there's not a "one size fits all" logic when it comes to the technology industry.

As for the college education requirement, it's mostly a "blockade". I'm at an executive level at the company I'm with, so I do a fair amount of hiring from time to time. I've hired a few that were in college but haven't any degrees seeing as they've shown me that they had a portfolio that outlined their skills that were applicable to the position they were requesting. If these individuals were to never graduate from college, they'll never get a senior position or management position from larger companies without the company paying for their education. For startup companies in the tech world, the more employees with degrees make them more valuable when trying to pitch to investors or potential buyers. While I agree that it shouldn't be a requirement for entry level, it's more so about trying to hire someone that shows that they will stick around and will be able to get promoted. Executives (those CTOs, CEOs, COOs) aren't normally keen on promoting people outside of entry level if they haven't a college degree.
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