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Briarwood Church Seeks Own Official Police Force, ACLU Opposes
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Posted 4/18/17 , edited 4/18/17
Apparently, Briarwood Church is seeking to establish its own police force to protect its thousands of parishioners, of which 2,100 are students enrolled at school, and around 4,100 congregants, with the need to have all the rights and privileges of Government police officers for the most part, with a requirement for the state police department to certify these officers, to otherwise enforce order on said campus, with criminals handed to police, raising concerns about lawful responsibilities of these officers versus the use of confessionals or something, regarding drug use possibly.

Meanwhile, the ACLU considers it an affront to the establishment clause regarding no official religion, and separation of Church and state, which are under protection by the usual police, as are all areas of the public.


https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2017/04/14/alabama-senate-gives-megachurch-right-form-its-own-police-force/100468472/

I want to hear arguments. Not too sure of this measure, less so on rights.

I think we need to know the legal difference between what an official first responders can do and what security guards, from off duty policeman to private contractors can do, and decide if such differences warrant either a relaxation on the current lawful differences before considering the arguments of the Church and the ACLU.


I am siding with the ACLU for the most part, but I do not know that much. I am more reminded of X-Men's William Stryker and his group called Purifiers.

I think if we do this, expanded rights may be done, but it can be comparable to a Christian Sharia's Law if too much power is given to enforce rules with legal force that the Church finds unethical, but it seems more like a state of corruption and subversion if anything.
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Posted 4/18/17 , edited 4/18/17
Just some basics:

In the United States we have our own classical view on things like these. It says very clearly in the Declaration of Independence what we hold as self-evident -- meaning obvious:

1) God created us all equal, with certain inalienable, God-given rights
2) To preserve those rights, we institute governments.
3) Governments derive their authority by delegation from the governed, with the consent of the governed.

In conclusion: the government receives any rights it has by delegation from the governed. Hence, the government cannot have a right that is not delegated to it. Hence, it can only have rights that the individuals governed already have.

Those are some basic principles in American culture. Indeed, in any culture that regards highly the rights of the individual.
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Posted 4/18/17 , edited 4/18/17
I see no problem with it just tax the church to pay for it or tell them to hire their own security force
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Posted 4/18/17 , edited 4/18/17
I see no problem with it, look at the amount of people, most places with that many people have a form of guard to protect them
you are pushing it a bit far with saying it could be like Christian sharia, sharia encompasses all parts of government and daily life, these would be like officers at a public school
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Posted 4/18/17 , edited 4/18/17

redokami wrote:

I see no problem with it, look at the amount of people, most places with that many people have a form of guard to protect them
you are pushing it a bit far with saying it could be like Christian sharia, sharia encompasses all parts of government and daily life, these would be like officers at a public school


Yah, the whole "Christian sharia" thing is a bit nuts. There isn't really an equivalent to sharia in Christianity, since Christianity, unlike is Islam, is not a political system as religion.
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Posted 4/18/17 , edited 4/18/17

redokami wrote:

I see no problem with it, look at the amount of people, most places with that many people have a form of guard to protect them


I do not know, many places like Jewelry companies like De Beers and Nightclubs have their own security protection they pay for for on the site protection that they themselves pay for. Comic-Con does appear to have uniformed police, but they take place in public areas owned by the government, such as a center or a library, while Churches are considered officially private.

In any case, the problem seems to lie with having a police force with all the rights of uniformed officers specifically in the employ of the Church, and the rights to regulate them that is often done so by the government, with presumably separate laws in place for private contractors and such. My previous statement was to consider the regulation for such unofficial protection, and see if the rules that applied to them need relaxing. They are worried about shootings, and that is reasonable in today's era.

Safety is a paramount concern. However, the police are specifically trained to protect everyone and enforce the law.



karatecowboy wrote:


redokami wrote:

I see no problem with it, look at the amount of people, most places with that many people have a form of guard to protect them
you are pushing it a bit far with saying it could be like Christian sharia, sharia encompasses all parts of government and daily life, these would be like officers at a public school


Yah, the whole "Christian sharia" thing is a bit nuts. There isn't really an equivalent to sharia in Christianity, since Christianity, unlike is Islam, is not a political system as religion.


Some of it is rooted in a "50 years from now" slippery slope hypothetical. It is pretty frightening when rights are flagrantly transgressed by both party that are firmly rooted in power. A tyranny for the people is a tyranny all the same, I assume.

You are right, though. The reasoning here is rooted in public protection, not in the strict adherence of religious law, which only imbibes on the members of one's own religion, hence the criticism of Sharia law. It may change quite a number of years from now. I won't say it will. It is why I mentioned the purifiers earlier, or for anime fans, something along the Iscariot section of the Vatican from Hellsing.

I think Scalia was right about the consideration of precedence, and this may lead to a Supreme Court ruling.
qwueri 
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Posted 4/18/17 , edited 4/18/17
I think I must be missing some detail, why is it necessary for the church to hire police as opposed to just security personnel?
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Posted 4/18/17 , edited 4/18/17

qwueri wrote:

I think I must be missing some detail, why is it necessary for the church to hire police as opposed to just security personnel?


I am wondering the necessity of the measure as well when considering other options. I do not think the police are obligated to provide free charge security to private enterprises, unless you are specifically endangered, and perhaps they do not have the money. Maybe the tuition for the elementary school is low that they cannot hire a legion of guards.
runec 
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Posted 4/18/17 , edited 4/18/17
The article has both the question and the answer:


Churches have a right to be safe, Obeidallah wrote. “But do you think if Muslims in Alabama asked to create their own police force to protect their mosque we would see the GOP members of the Alabama Legislature be as supportive as they are to the Briarwood church?”


If the answer is no, then this is unconstitutional and given that it's Alabama, the answer is more assuredly no.

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Posted 4/18/17 , edited 4/18/17

runec wrote:
given that it's Alabama, the answer is no.


fixed that for you.
Posted 4/18/17 , edited 4/18/17
Its not like they're a religious police force enforcing religious laws, I don't see a problem with it. Other than its a gross mega church it sounds like.
But yeah with thousands of people gathering, a few certified cops and a drunk tank would probably help the local police department out a bunch.
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Posted 4/18/17 , edited 4/18/17
Wait... There are lots of colleges and universities with their own campus police forces... So, why can't they have one? That's not fair.
Posted 4/18/17 , edited 4/18/17

DeadlyOats wrote:

Wait... There are lots of colleges and universities with their own campus police forces... So, why can't they have one? That's not fair.

B-but they're CHRISTIANS!

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Posted 4/18/17 , edited 4/18/17

DeadlyOats wrote:

Wait... There are lots of colleges and universities with their own campus police forces... So, why can't they have one? That's not fair.


because colleges and universities produce revenue for the state churches don't if they want a police force then tax them so they can help pay for it

This is a mega church racking in hundreds of millions of tax free dollars and you mean to tell me they can't hire a top notch security force? I find that very hard to believe
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Posted 4/18/17 , edited 4/18/17

Amyas_Leigh wrote:


DeadlyOats wrote:

Wait... There are lots of colleges and universities with their own campus police forces... So, why can't they have one? That's not fair.

B-but they're CHRISTIANS!



Has nothing to do with the fact they are Christians. I would say the same thing about any religion or any tax exempted organisation
If they want a tax payer police force under their control they should help pay for it
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