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Post Reply British PM Theresa May to seek snap election for 8th June
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Posted 4/18/17

altaidox wrote:
the actual outcome of Brexit/Article 50 being cancelled would be damaging. It would breach democracy, as well as betray a lot of voices.


I always find this argument fascinating. If a referendum at one specific point in time comes to one decision and a later vote (referendum or general election campaign fought on the issue of Brexit) comes out with a different decision, why is overturning the original decision going against democracy? Both are democratic decisions so the argument is fairly flawed.

That is just an academic argument though as I would be very suprised if the remain camp could topple the government. Depending on how much free reign the candidates get in the campaign there could be a mandate for a cross-party pro-EU bloc after the election to influence the negotiations, but not enough to gain power in its own right.

My own personal vote will almost certainly be wasted. I live in a "safe" seat where thousands of my zombified neighbours vote for the same party no matter the candidate or the issues in the campaign. We haven't had a change in party here since before 1940.
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Posted 4/19/17 , edited 4/19/17

MidoriNoTora wrote:


altaidox wrote:
the actual outcome of Brexit/Article 50 being cancelled would be damaging. It would breach democracy, as well as betray a lot of voices.


I always find this argument fascinating. If a referendum at one specific point in time comes to one decision and a later vote (referendum or general election campaign fought on the issue of Brexit) comes out with a different decision, why is overturning the original decision going against democracy? Both are democratic decisions so the argument is fairly flawed.

That is just an academic argument though as I would be very suprised if the remain camp could topple the government. Depending on how much free reign the candidates get in the campaign there could be a mandate for a cross-party pro-EU bloc after the election to influence the negotiations, but not enough to gain power in its own right.

My own personal vote will almost certainly be wasted. I live in a "safe" seat where thousands of my zombified neighbours vote for the same party no matter the candidate or the issues in the campaign. We haven't had a change in party here since before 1940.


No one would mind if they had a re-election or a referendum because then it would be legit. Although if the government just goes "fuck it, we'll just not leave" then that's messed up on all accounts. People are just afraid that if we do another referendum, they'll lose this time around (because polls show they either didn't know what they were voting for OR they regret it). That's all they care about.

I feel you on that though, I originally come from an all white neighborhood of middle classed people between the age of 40 - 80. The type who believe all younger people are selfish, ignorant and want to ruin "traditional" way of life with our lgbt+ rights and such. I live with my friend and her partner (who's Polish) now so there will probably be a different viewpoint this time around.

I'm a pessimist though, none of the parties represent who I am so I don't really want to vote.
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Posted 4/19/17
Might as well vote for May she the only one willing to attempt to sort out the mess in a way that benefits us the others like the coward david cameron will just destroy the stability that has been found in a failed attempt to undo the brexit and leave us in a worse place with no proper deals and negotiations and the Scottish lads are just gonna make a mess out of everything so they are an utter nope. Stay with what you know rather than vote for more liars with ulterior motives no prime minister has ever delivered on what they say they will as far as i can see this woman is the only one that has stopped the nonsense of fighting over a democratic vote and is working hard af to try and get the best deals out of it. The only people that really hate her are the ones trying to UNDO democracy and a democratic vote just because they are unhappy with the outcome this isnt a lottery its a country our home and our lives no one undos votes simply because you disagree deal with the outcome and try to make the absolute best out of it lets face it we have absolutely no faith in any of them and she was the only one willing to take up the mantle. Meanwhile that stupid cow of a woman trying to get another referendum for Scotland cause she cant fucking accept democracy and wants what will be the 3rd or 4th independence vote for scotland everyone Scottish and english alike in their majority have voted over and over again to stay and frankly what she is doing is just damaging to all countries involved.
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Posted 4/19/17
A democratic vote is a vote of the masses you dont simply vote again and again till you get the outcome you want . An example of this would be what this Scottish woman is doing if she gets her way this will be the 3rd referendum and frankly she is just being stubborn and in denial.
mo-gan 
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Posted 4/19/17 , edited 4/19/17

MadaraUltimatumzeros wrote:

A democratic vote is a vote of the masses you dont simply vote again and again till you get the outcome you want . An example of this would be what this Scottish woman is doing if she gets her way this will be the 3rd referendum and frankly she is just being stubborn and in denial.


I agree with this completely. I voted remain, but the overall vote was to leave. It's time to grow up, accept that is what it is and make the best of what you consider to be a "good" or a "bad" situation. Being divided on Brexit will give us a weaker bargaining chip, as will flip flopping from leaving to staying.
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Posted 4/19/17

mo-gan wrote:


MadaraUltimatumzeros wrote:

A democratic vote is a vote of the masses you dont simply vote again and again till you get the outcome you want . An example of this would be what this Scottish woman is doing if she gets her way this will be the 3rd referendum and frankly she is just being stubborn and in denial.


I agree with this completely. I voted remain, but the overall vote was to leave. It's time to grow up, accept that is what it is and make the best of what you consider to be a "good" or a "bad" situation. Being divided on Brexit will give us a weaker bargaining chip, as will flip flopping from leaving to staying.


Absolutely agree.

Unfortunately, in regards to a referendum if it is an official vote - then it happens. So if Scotland do get a referendum and leave, then they're entitled to. You can't stop a country doing what they want if the majority vote for it.
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Posted 4/19/17

MadaraUltimatumzeros wrote:

Might as well vote for May she the only one willing to attempt to sort out the mess in a way that benefits us the others like the coward david cameron will just destroy the stability that has been found in a failed attempt to undo the brexit and leave us in a worse place with no proper deals and negotiations and the Scottish lads are just gonna make a mess out of everything so they are an utter nope. Stay with what you know rather than vote for more liars with ulterior motives no prime minister has ever delivered on what they say they will as far as i can see this woman is the only one that has stopped the nonsense of fighting over a democratic vote and is working hard af to try and get the best deals out of it. The only people that really hate her are the ones trying to UNDO democracy and a democratic vote just because they are unhappy with the outcome this isnt a lottery its a country our home and our lives no one undos votes simply because you disagree deal with the outcome and try to make the absolute best out of it lets face it we have absolutely no faith in any of them and she was the only one willing to take up the mantle. Meanwhile that stupid cow of a woman trying to get another referendum for Scotland cause she cant fucking accept democracy and wants what will be the 3rd or 4th independence vote for scotland everyone Scottish and english alike in their majority have voted over and over again to stay and frankly what she is doing is just damaging to all countries involved.


Calm down. If she LEGALLY gets the right to start a Referendum, then she (and the rest of Scotland) are entitled to vote for it. That's how democracy works, we don't just do something and then not expect the opposition to be slightly pissed. Democracy doesn't just stop because one side won a vote, people will argue and continue to disagree.
mo-gan 
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Posted 4/19/17

altaidox wrote:

Absolutely agree.

Unfortunately, in regards to a referendum if it is an official vote - then it happens. So if Scotland do get a referendum and leave, then they're entitled to. You can't stop a country doing what they want if the majority vote for it.


(Removed a chunk of the quotes because it becomes ugly to read )
That's true that if Scotland vote to leave then they're entitled to, I don't debate that. What I don't like however is this opinion that "Because we didn't get the result we want, we're going to just leave". There were many parts of England that voted remain, as well as Ireland and Wales, but the overwhelming majority of people voted to leave. I'm not going to have a referendum in my household because I disagreed with the majority consensus (an exaggerated comparison, but you get the idea). Not to mention, if there's going to be a referendum every time something happens which "Scotland" doesn't agree with, we're constantly going to be focusing on divides and never actually progress anywhere.

In short, I'm against there being a referendum, and I'm against Scotland leaving, but if they do have a referendum and they do vote to leave, then I'm not going to be out protesting every day and crying myself to sleep.
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Posted 4/19/17 , edited 4/19/17

mo-gan wrote:


altaidox wrote:

Absolutely agree.

Unfortunately, in regards to a referendum if it is an official vote - then it happens. So if Scotland do get a referendum and leave, then they're entitled to. You can't stop a country doing what they want if the majority vote for it.


(Removed a chunk of the quotes because it becomes ugly to read )
That's true that if Scotland vote to leave then they're entitled to, I don't debate that. What I don't like however is this opinion that "Because we didn't get the result we want, we're going to just leave". There were many parts of England that voted remain, as well as Ireland and Wales, but the overwhelming majority of people voted to leave. I'm not going to have a referendum in my household because I disagreed with the majority consensus (an exaggerated comparison, but you get the idea). Not to mention, if there's going to be a referendum every time something happens which "Scotland" doesn't agree with, we're constantly going to be focusing on divides and never actually progress anywhere.

In short, I'm against there being a referendum, and I'm against Scotland leaving, but if they do have a referendum and they do vote to leave, then I'm not going to be out protesting every day and crying myself to sleep.


SNP right now are kind of annoying me with the holding referendum to stay and have the British peoples decisions effect Scottish people then when they don't get their way they throw their toys out of their pram and want to leave again I'm just thinking sorry guys we voted to stay and deal with leaving the EU so maybe more people should have voted for independence...
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Posted 4/19/17

SandyNewt wrote:

SNP right now are kind of annoying me with the holding referendum to stay and have the British peoples decisions effect Scottish people then when they don't get their way they throw their toys out of their pram and want to leave again I'm just thinking sorry guys we voted to stay and deal with leaving the EU so maybe more people should have voted for independence...


I don't know which way you voted in the referendum but I should point out that many in the Brexit camp were just as bad. Before the results came out in their favour a number of people said that they would continue to fight to leave the EU and gain a second referendum. Some of those same people are now saying that it is wrong for Scotland to have a second referendum because they already made their decision.

It's nice to prove that politicians have no scruples no matter where they are from.
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Posted 4/19/17
Meanwhile the Commonwealth is going on wondering the hell is up with the UK.
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Posted 4/19/17

MidoriNoTora wrote:


SandyNewt wrote:

SNP right now are kind of annoying me with the holding referendum to stay and have the British peoples decisions effect Scottish people then when they don't get their way they throw their toys out of their pram and want to leave again I'm just thinking sorry guys we voted to stay and deal with leaving the EU so maybe more people should have voted for independence...


I don't know which way you voted in the referendum but I should point out that many in the Brexit camp were just as bad. Before the results came out in their favour a number of people said that they would continue to fight to leave the EU and gain a second referendum. Some of those same people are now saying that it is wrong for Scotland to have a second referendum because they already made their decision.

It's nice to prove that politicians have no scruples no matter where they are from.


Of course parties like UKIP and the Tories thing was independence them and people will say that to gain solidarity with their cause the only party I see continuing that in the hypothetical situation Brexit never occurred is UKIP the Tories would be too scared they would become the next Lib-Dems so the safer option for them would have been hold power that's probably why they pushed out David Cameron if it were not for the slander on UKIP their party probably would have gained more popularity. Leaving was there whole thing and had a pretty good manifesto.

I voted SNP and to leave (also to leave the UK) because I don't like the EU it's rather undemocratic and SNP because it's the only party that half cares about my area that hasn't became terrible and SNP are following them. The EU is collapsing it's best we leave is a lot of peoples views.

Like the independence referendum if we decided to stay that would be the will of the people my problem isn't with the individuals it's how the party is using it as an excuse to get their own way... the individuals can complain and petition all they want it's their right. I agree with the people that say Scotland already made their decision the will of the Scottish people was the will of the whole British public was the same as the will of them now the SNP are saying no it's different when it's not it's a decision the Scottish public made as they voted to stay as a member of the British public.
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Posted 4/19/17
Democracy isn't some foolish debate that is supposed to go on for eons it is there to give the voice of the massive of the people a voice. Democracy is not the continual disregarding of the vote outcome to get what you want it is to hear the voice of the people and what they want the vote has been done over and over again and she is disregarding it and trying to force her own will upon the people like a dictator. What she is doing is attempting to take advantage of the instability and chaos of the brexit without letting everything settle down and hash out and the result of her actions will lead to even more instability and chaos. We as a whole are trying to get a grasp of the situation and trying to make the best of a bad thing and she sees this as a golden opportunity to turn the stability we have only just managed to achieve following the brexit to further her own ambitions. May wants to ensure that there is stability and solidarity and that we are moving in the right direction by issuing a vote she had initially said she would not have directly as a result of that stupid woman bantering on about utter nonsense. Instead of trying to snipe at each other over possible reasons for the early vote take that as an opportunity to find some faith balance and stability by selecting a parliamentary government we would support however given the history of parliament and any government in general apart from Canada who seems to have the right idea about everything I have completely no faith in the government at all and we have given the opportunity to vote and at this point no one really knows who to vote for as in the wake of brexit we can see the true colours of a government and see the lies that the tell falling flat before them cause they know no amount of lies and word tricks will sort this out probably the reason most of them left as soon as it happen as there was clearly no more scheming to be done.
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Posted 4/19/17

mo-gan wrote:


altaidox wrote:

Absolutely agree.

Unfortunately, in regards to a referendum if it is an official vote - then it happens. So if Scotland do get a referendum and leave, then they're entitled to. You can't stop a country doing what they want if the majority vote for it.


(Removed a chunk of the quotes because it becomes ugly to read )
That's true that if Scotland vote to leave then they're entitled to, I don't debate that. What I don't like however is this opinion that "Because we didn't get the result we want, we're going to just leave". There were many parts of England that voted remain, as well as Ireland and Wales, but the overwhelming majority of people voted to leave. I'm not going to have a referendum in my household because I disagreed with the majority consensus (an exaggerated comparison, but you get the idea). Not to mention, if there's going to be a referendum every time something happens which "Scotland" doesn't agree with, we're constantly going to be focusing on divides and never actually progress anywhere.

In short, I'm against there being a referendum, and I'm against Scotland leaving, but if they do have a referendum and they do vote to leave, then I'm not going to be out protesting every day and crying myself to sleep.


Exactly my point we will never make any bloody progress if this daft woman keeps taking us 4 steps back when we take 1 step forward, however in the case of brexit it was a step forward followed by the slip of the foot completely losing balance and collapsing in a rather untidy unseemly mess
bakura 
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Posted 4/20/17
Right well I think all this just proofs now is that democracy was a bad idea and only through a strong dictatorship can we have order, who's with me?

Long live the empire.
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