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Is mind uploading possible?
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Posted 5/14/17 , edited 5/14/17

Ryulightorb wrote:


PeripheralVisionary wrote:

Maybe, maybe not. Perhaps ghost dubbing, as they call in GITS, is just a copy, an identical copy at best, but not the original, fooling itself to think a transfer has happened.


Though a copy is just as good as the original it's still you.
SO you would succeed either way.


fredreload wrote:


Ryulightorb wrote:

Copied maybe Transferred unlikely.

Even copying would require a better understanding of the human brain.
Would the copy be you? Yes it would it has your memories it wouldn't be the original you but it would still be you just like a clone

The best idea to immortality via brain transfer would be to slowly replace each part of the brain one by one and let it transition (if even possible this is only in though) but even then you would come across the "ship of theseus" paradox (i believe it is still the same boat even if 100% of it is replaced mainly because my beliefs on what stands as one entity is different then most.

but for most people they would consider this a copy and you would be dead.

Either way your fucked and its a copy.


Yes, the transition idea is precisely what I am talking about, from the real brain to the 3D brain achieving digital immortality. Even if most people consider this a copy I believe the 3D brain would contain the original consciousness. Even though I really can't answer what consciousness is. And from this arise the question of, why isn't everyone's brain linked? And, there should be a delay in wavelength between everyone's brain so that no two brains are the same. And, what if you run a brain synchronized and parallel to the original brain?




The brain is a closed system that's why.
If you run a brain synchronized to the parallel brain it would be like a Remote control helicopter that could work.



Well, in a way, perhaps, but the original you would still be fucked I imagine.
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Posted 5/14/17 , edited 5/14/17

descloud wrote:

If we could locate our mind in our brain then yes. Right now, we cannot even find where our memory is so it's not currently possible.


People suspects that memory is stored in the neuronal structure of the brain, you could technically simulate brain plasticity with an algorithm.


PeripheralVisionary wrote:


Ryulightorb wrote:


PeripheralVisionary wrote:

Maybe, maybe not. Perhaps ghost dubbing, as they call in GITS, is just a copy, an identical copy at best, but not the original, fooling itself to think a transfer has happened.


Though a copy is just as good as the original it's still you.
SO you would succeed either way.


fredreload wrote:


Ryulightorb wrote:

Copied maybe Transferred unlikely.

Even copying would require a better understanding of the human brain.
Would the copy be you? Yes it would it has your memories it wouldn't be the original you but it would still be you just like a clone

The best idea to immortality via brain transfer would be to slowly replace each part of the brain one by one and let it transition (if even possible this is only in though) but even then you would come across the "ship of theseus" paradox (i believe it is still the same boat even if 100% of it is replaced mainly because my beliefs on what stands as one entity is different then most.

but for most people they would consider this a copy and you would be dead.

Either way your fucked and its a copy.


Yes, the transition idea is precisely what I am talking about, from the real brain to the 3D brain achieving digital immortality. Even if most people consider this a copy I believe the 3D brain would contain the original consciousness. Even though I really can't answer what consciousness is. And from this arise the question of, why isn't everyone's brain linked? And, there should be a delay in wavelength between everyone's brain so that no two brains are the same. And, what if you run a brain synchronized and parallel to the original brain?




The brain is a closed system that's why.
If you run a brain synchronized to the parallel brain it would be like a Remote control helicopter that could work.



Well, in a way, perhaps, but the original you would still be fucked I imagine.


If two brains are running synchronized to each other technically they are one entity? This is speculation on my part so I can't be sure, if you can prove this then this thread is yours
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Posted 5/14/17 , edited 5/14/17
I notice that a lot of the "no" answers are just one word replies. But addressing the ones that aren't, clearly you wouldn't be moving anything, but this would necessarily matter. The fact that the copy would be a continuation of the same thoughts, possibly more so than your brain after a concussion, seems more important than it being a direct continuation on a neuro or chemical level.

It also seems more a question of values than anything else. A possible mind might think that even a slight change in itself makes it someone else. It wouldn't identify with what existed yesterday (though it might be mad at them) or what will exist tomorrow. On the other had you can have an internally consistent concept of self that allows for very drastic changes, and includes anything that we might think of as a mental descendent.

But while there is a large family of self concepts, only a small fraction accurately reflects how any humans work.
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Posted 5/14/17 , edited 5/14/17

PeripheralVisionary wrote:


Ryulightorb wrote:


PeripheralVisionary wrote:

Maybe, maybe not. Perhaps ghost dubbing, as they call in GITS, is just a copy, an identical copy at best, but not the original, fooling itself to think a transfer has happened.


Though a copy is just as good as the original it's still you.
SO you would succeed either way.


fredreload wrote:


Ryulightorb wrote:

Copied maybe Transferred unlikely.

Even copying would require a better understanding of the human brain.
Would the copy be you? Yes it would it has your memories it wouldn't be the original you but it would still be you just like a clone

The best idea to immortality via brain transfer would be to slowly replace each part of the brain one by one and let it transition (if even possible this is only in though) but even then you would come across the "ship of theseus" paradox (i believe it is still the same boat even if 100% of it is replaced mainly because my beliefs on what stands as one entity is different then most.

but for most people they would consider this a copy and you would be dead.

Either way your fucked and its a copy.


Yes, the transition idea is precisely what I am talking about, from the real brain to the 3D brain achieving digital immortality. Even if most people consider this a copy I believe the 3D brain would contain the original consciousness. Even though I really can't answer what consciousness is. And from this arise the question of, why isn't everyone's brain linked? And, there should be a delay in wavelength between everyone's brain so that no two brains are the same. And, what if you run a brain synchronized and parallel to the original brain?




The brain is a closed system that's why.
If you run a brain synchronized to the parallel brain it would be like a Remote control helicopter that could work.



Well, in a way, perhaps, but the original you would still be fucked I imagine.


well yeah but what makes you, you is mostly your memories ("mostly") so some of you lives on.
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Posted 5/14/17 , edited 5/14/17

fredreload wrote:

Here it is, without understanding what consciousness is completely, can consciousness be transferred from one brain to the other?

The Experiment:
Assuming you 3D scan your brain structure into the computer where you can look at the 3D image of your brain. Can you theoretically pour in your consciousness from your brain into this 3D structure? I've always imagined our consciousness to be the electrical synapses (water) running inside the brain (glass), so it seems technically possible to transfer this electrical synapses into the 3D brain structure.

Conclusion:
Do you think this is possible to achieve or not?


A 3D scan wouldnt work sadly the brain is more complex than that.

What is possible however is to upload your memories to a computer and be able to redownload them for perfect memory.
This technology is almost complete the main problem is computers transfering data fast enough AND the huge ammount of storage it would take. We just dont have big enough hard drives
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Posted 5/14/17 , edited 5/14/17

Jean104 wrote:

I notice that a lot of the "no" answers are just one word replies. But addressing the ones that aren't, clearly you wouldn't be moving anything, but this would necessarily matter. The fact that the copy would be a continuation of the same thoughts, possibly more so than your brain after a concussion, seems more important than it being a direct continuation on a neuro or chemical level.

It also seems more a question of values than anything else. A possible mind might think that even a slight change in itself makes it someone else. It wouldn't identify with what existed yesterday (though it might be mad at them) or what will exist tomorrow. On the other had you can have an internally consistent concept of self that allows for very drastic changes, and includes anything that we might think of as a mental descendent.

But while there is a large family of self concepts, only a small fraction accurately reflects how any humans work.


Consciousness is a continuous thing, you don't change to another person the next second and you holds a record of the past.

Attempts to explain consciousness:
When you tap on the jack of a speaker, or the antenna of a radio, it makes a noise. Now imagine electrical signal to be the current, the neuron be the voice coil, it would then produce a varying magnetic field, that magnetic field is consciousness, which can be influenced by other magnetic fields. So now we have to simulate a magnetic field in a computer, anyone knows how to do that?
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Posted 5/14/17 , edited 5/14/17
I don't see what the magnetic field adds. And I don't think anything our minds do is actually continuous. Our vision doesn't seem choppy to us despite our eyes only taking a finite number of pictures, along with blinking and erratic eye movement, but that isn't because our brain makes infinitely many in-between images.

Another thing is that an overly flexible and moldable mind might bare not only next to no resemblance to "itself" across relatively short periods of time, but little correlation either. That is who they become has vary little to do with who they were. So continuality isn't enough on it's own.

Of course what counts as close enough, is also underspecified at least in the broader context of all minds.
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Posted 5/14/17 , edited 5/14/17

Jean104 wrote:

I don't see what the magnetic field adds. And I don't think anything our minds do is actually continuous. Our vision doesn't seem choppy to us despite our eyes only taking a finite number of pictures, along with blinking and erratic eye movement, but that isn't because our brain makes infinitely many in-between images.

Another thing is that an overly flexible and moldable mind might bare not only next to no resemblance to "itself" across relatively short periods of time, but little correlation either. That is who they become has vary little to do with who they were. So continuality isn't enough on it's own.

Of course what counts as close enough, is also underspecified at least in the broader context of all minds.


The distribution of ions has created a field, the potassium on the outside and sodium on the inside due to the sodium-potassium pump or the other way around. Then the firing of nerve impulses create a disturbance in the field as EM field of consciousness theory suggested. Continuous as of the fact that we are the same self since we were born until now. I was trying to prove that even after entering the digital realm our consciousness would remain the same, but not as a clone.

Consciousness is one single unit, no matter how many broken pieces of brain with running electrical signals and magnetic field piece together makes it one consciousness. Therefore, if the EM field of the two brains matches, which the EM field does not need to be next to each other but can be broken into many pieces, then the two brains should have the same consciousness. Why do all of us have different consciousness? Well, maybe because the timing of the electrical signals are different, making the EM field different from each other.

That or either two of the same EM fields are still two separate consciousnesses, my logic shouldn't betray me

To put it simply, I am moving my arm, but why am I not moving your arm. If the signal coming from my brain reaches my arm and the signal coming from your brain reaches your arm at the same time, how do you know if the signal is coming from your brain or my brain? So if both of us move our arm at the same time, they should be synchronized to each other. I should be able to feel your arm and you should be able to feel my arm.
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Posted 5/14/17 , edited 5/14/17
This is what I mean by the magnetic field idea not seeming to add anything. It mostly just muddles things. I'm not even sure if we are disagreeing about anything important.

While a copy would be an equal valued continuation from whenever it was made, the two instances of you are still distinct physical systems, and can't move each others arms. They have equal rights as far as previously owned property or contracts, but they are still two things.

Come to think of it there are some contrived situations where they could usefully be thought of as moving eachothers arms. If they were immediately put into a prisoner's dilemma, knowing who they were up against, they should choice as if they are choosing for both.
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Posted 5/14/17 , edited 5/14/17
Maybe in the future, but i don't hope.
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Posted 5/14/17 , edited 5/15/17

Jean104 wrote:

This is what I mean by the magnetic field idea not seeming to add anything. It mostly just muddles things. I'm not even sure if we are disagreeing about anything important.

While a copy would be an equal valued continuation from whenever it was made, the two instances of you are still distinct physical systems, and can't move each others arms. They have equal rights as far as previously owned property or contracts, but they are still two things.

Come to think of it there are some contrived situations where they could usefully be thought of as moving eachothers arms. If they were immediately put into a prisoner's dilemma, knowing who they were up against, they should choice as if they are choosing for both.


Right, you are right, the two consciousnesses are two distinct systems so you can't feel what others are feeling. Though I am pretty sure timing is the key, if the two brains have the same timing they should have the same consciousness. Something sort of bothers me on this one.
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Posted 5/14/17 , edited 5/15/17
It could be possible considering how there is electricity in our heads, I forget the actual way it would work exactly, but technically the technology one day should be able to do it. Eventually. I guess it's like uploading data essentially, as the title implies.
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Posted 5/23/17 , edited 5/23/17

MaartenOss wrote:

Maybe in the future, but i don't hope.


Why not any form of immortality is good
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Posted 5/23/17 , edited 5/23/17
The problem is orders of magnitude more difficult than futurists would tell you. Don't expect anything like it in your lifetime. I would not be surprised if such a thing never becomes possible, although I would also not be surprised if it does in some fashion if society stays very stable.

The brain is composed of an enormous number of neurons and the connections between them are not simple. Every neuron in your brain is different from every other, unlike artificial neural networks which are normally homogeneous. There are complex branching structures (dendrites) where interactions between electrical signals from different synapses interact with each other and themselves in mostly not understood ways. There are not just chemical but also electrical synapses. Synapses which, unlike their normal unidirectional nature, can conduct signals in both directions. There are direct axon-axon connections as well as dendrite-dendrite connections. The entire network is asynchronous. And there is no I/O port for reading the internal state.

While it is possible that our descendants may figure out how to extract a mind from the brain, it would most almost certainly be a destructive process.
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Posted 5/23/17 , edited 5/23/17

loremipsumdolor wrote:

The problem is orders of magnitude more difficult than futurists would tell you. Don't expect anything like it in your lifetime. I would not be surprised if such a thing never becomes possible, although I would also not be surprised if it does in some fashion if society stays very stable.

The brain is composed of an enormous number of neurons and the connections between them are not simple. Every neuron in your brain is different from every other, unlike artificial neural networks which are normally homogeneous. There are complex branching structures (dendrites) where interactions between electrical signals from different synapses interact with each other and themselves in mostly not understood ways. There are not just chemical but also electrical synapses. Synapses which, unlike their normal unidirectional nature, can conduct signals in both directions. There are direct axon-axon connections as well as dendrite-dendrite connections. The entire network is asynchronous. And there is no I/O port for reading the internal state.

While it is possible that our descendants may figure out how to extract a mind from the brain, it would most almost certainly be a destructive process.


This is very true before this even becomes a viable method of immortality other methods are likely to come along.

That being said it's possible we will be able to double our lifespans in our lifetimes if we keep at current progress if that happens we may live to see it.

I'm going into a field focused on life extension in the future hopefully if all pans out and I'll be damned if I'm gonna let myself die before I reach the age of 150!
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