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Post Reply now this is irony (hunter crushed by Elephant his friend shot)
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Posted 5/22/17 , edited 5/22/17

auroraloose wrote:



What if Albert Einstein were a poacher? Or your father?

I don't think I could reasonably compare how sad I'd be in any of these cases. If a poacher died suddenly in this fashion, he/she wouldn't have the chance to change. Death is a sad thing, even if it is deserved - if we can even define "deserving" to die. (I personally think we can, but that's another conversation.)


Same thing, Albert Einstein gave birth to the nuclear age so I wouldn't feel too sad about his death. As for my Father he was a wise enough man to know he would have to answer for his every action in one manner or another.

And really every single human being is incapable of true change. Who we are truly are is set in stone rather early in life , all that we can change is who pretend to be. What mask we choose to wear.
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Posted 5/22/17 , edited 5/22/17

Ranwolf wrote:


auroraloose wrote:



What if Albert Einstein were a poacher? Or your father?

I don't think I could reasonably compare how sad I'd be in any of these cases. If a poacher died suddenly in this fashion, he/she wouldn't have the chance to change. Death is a sad thing, even if it is deserved - if we can even define "deserving" to die. (I personally think we can, but that's another conversation.)


Same thing, Albert Einstein gave birth to the nuclear age so I wouldn't feel too sad about his death. As for my Father he was a wise enough man to know he would have to answer for his every action in one manner or another.

And really every single human being is incapable of true change. Who we are truly are is set in stone rather early in life , all that we can change is who pretend to be. What mask we choose to wear.


Whoa, wait. There is no way Einstein could have discovered/demonstrated what he did without simultaneously making the science of nuclear weapons possible. That he pushed FDR to develop nuclear weapons despite his pacifism demonstrates how hard an issue this is.

Anyway, I can't believe that you'd be less sad about your father dying if he were a poacher than about this random guy you've never met.
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Posted 5/22/17 , edited 5/22/17

auroraloose wrote:

I think the internet makes us forget that people we don't like, and people we disagree with, are just as human as we are. So this thread really bothers me.


Don't you think the elephant deserved better then to be shot by a rich douche trying to hide the fact he has a tiny penis? I have zero sympathy for sport hunters they give us real hunters a bad name
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Posted 5/22/17 , edited 5/22/17

uncletim wrote:


auroraloose wrote:

I think the internet makes us forget that people we don't like, and people we disagree with, are just as human as we are. So this thread really bothers me.


Don't you think the elephant deserved better then to be shot by a rich douche trying to hide the fact he has a tiny penis? I have zero sympathy for sport hunters they give us real hunters a bad name


You possess no information about the motives or history of this person. But you know exactly how much of a person the elephant is: not at all. Even if they are endangered, poached, and whatever you can think of, elephants are just dumb, walking pieces of meat. Humans are much more. Again, what if this sport hunter were your sister?
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Posted 5/22/17 , edited 5/22/17

auroraloose wrote:



Whoa, wait. There is no way Einstein could have discovered/demonstrated what he did without simultaneously making the science of nuclear weapons possible. That he pushed FDR to develop nuclear weapons despite his pacifism demonstrates how hard an issue this is.

Anyway, I can't believe that you'd be less sad about your father dying if he were a poacher than about this random guy you've never met.


See your problem is that you think just because I knew my Father his life means more to me then some random stranger. Death is Death and none of us are worth more in then end then anyone else. Regardless of our achievements, the people who love and care for us, and the worth we ourselves place on our lives we are all worth the same.

The death of a Human is tragic even if that death is of a some random hunter in Africa. That was a lesson my Father taught me back when I could still get the child rate at carnivals. And it's why I can willingly risk my life and well being for people I will never know, will never meet, and likely don't really care about when all is said and done.

If you suddenly place a higher value on certain lives you become unable to truly help other people . Because you will place more effort on these lives you foolishly value higher then others.
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Posted 5/22/17 , edited 5/22/17

auroraloose wrote:


octorockandroll wrote:


auroraloose wrote:

Um. Independent of what you think of hunting, somebody died here. The hunting group clearly could have been a lot more careful, but connecting this to karma is cruel.


octorockandroll wrote:

I wish this happened to poachers instead of actual, respectable, legal hunters.


Poachers are people, too. You would wish death on them?


Yes, I would definitely be less sad if death came for someone who unlawfully kills endangered animals and people rather than someone operating well within the confines of the law. No question about it.


What if Albert Einstein were a poacher? Or your father?

I don't think I could reasonably compare how sad I'd be in any of these cases. If a poacher died suddenly in this fashion, he/she wouldn't have the chance to change. Death is a sad thing, even if it is deserved - if we can even define "deserving" to die. (I personally think we can, but that's another conversation.)


Well I wasn't saying "deserving to die" was I? I just said it sucks that it happens to a respectable law abiding man when there are so many who do similar activities but illegally, driving species to extinction and killing other people in the process. I'm not saying poachers should get the death penalty, but if they died performing their heinous acts I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.
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Posted 5/22/17 , edited 5/22/17
There's no winners here.

Killing an elephant is overkill and senseless. But he did this by the books and put himself at risk when he's got a wife and 5 kids back home. That's irresponsible and selfish.

No idea what age the kids are. It would be terrible if he had a young child who's now growing up without a daddy. All for some stupid trophy kill.
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Posted 5/22/17 , edited 5/22/17
good news!!!

this man would've had killed more elephants. he wouldn't stop with one, so him dying is a direct win for the elephant population

also this will make many big game hunters going to Africa or India within a couple months reconsider about what they are partaking in

even if one hunter changes his mind, thats an indirect win for the elephants

so there is a winner here: elephants
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Posted 5/22/17 , edited 5/22/17
This just seems sad, but it depends on whether or not you can consider hunting, even legal hunting, a terrible moral atrocity deserving of death, regardless of its normality or overall acceptance. Some people see cruelty as begetting cruelty, and I can understand that view, as one can understand that in the minds of people against abortion, there really is no difference between an abortion in a clinic and tossing a birthed baby in dumpster except for legality, or that animals, while being usually considered less than worth of a typical human being, as still having valuable lives that goes beyond being killed for amusement.

I understand the general feelings on both sides, but I am not sure which one I can agree with without considering an overwhelming bias to justify my current lifestyle, or what ideas have great merit.

You have to understand what people will grant equivalency to in moral wrongs. For some people, this is justifiable and horrendous enough to beget karma, whereas others like myself, will consider serial killers like Bundy well deserving of the death, even if I do not support the death penalty being legalized. The argument that this is "worst" or "not as bad then" only defines your opinion, not the person positing the argument you are debating. You need reasons as to why you have those standards in the first place, and to foremost demonstrate consistency in your own beliefs beyond emotions, such as that reasoning that some animals are capable of less psychological pain, or that some animals, such as ants, are stuck with such a simplistic mindset as to be considered living in a "perpetual presence".

That being said, I find safari treks to be more exhilarating than the idea of hunting, and while hunting does bring dollars to said regions, I have to wonder why such a systems need to exist in a first place, as in why cannot people just stop being assholes?


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Posted 5/22/17 , edited 5/22/17
and before my post is turned into me being happy the guy is dead: no

im happy for the elephants. i dont care about the dude. im not sad for him. i never met him. his family wont care whem i die, so im indifferently Neutral about his death
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Posted 5/22/17 , edited 5/22/17

PeripheralVisionary wrote:
such as that reasoning that some animals are capable of less psychological pain, or that some animals, such as ants, are stuck with such a simplistic mindset as to be considered living in a "perpetual presence".

That being said, I find safari treks to be more exhilarating than the idea of hunting, and while hunting does bring dollars to said regions, I have to wonder why such a systems need to exist in a first place, as in why cannot people just stop being assholes?


People can't just stop I believe it's part of being human For me it's not about psychological pain or any of that I was taught at a young age that every living thing is important for me it's about how much that particular thing affects the things around it. That's why execution under certain circumstances are fine. It's not because of elephants being less important or the person more important the person did something unsafe and paid the ultimate price for it as for the elephant hopefully it's death will help the other animals and people. If it turns out this was somehow illegal or caused excessive suffering to the elephant then I will view it as immoral. Same with killing ants it's bad to kill them just for the fun of it or kill them in a way that is cruel.
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Posted 5/22/17 , edited 5/22/17

SandyNewt wrote:


PeripheralVisionary wrote:
such as that reasoning that some animals are capable of less psychological pain, or that some animals, such as ants, are stuck with such a simplistic mindset as to be considered living in a "perpetual presence".

That being said, I find safari treks to be more exhilarating than the idea of hunting, and while hunting does bring dollars to said regions, I have to wonder why such a systems need to exist in a first place, as in why cannot people just stop being assholes?


People can't just stop I believe it's part of being human For me it's not about psychological pain or any of that I was taught at a young age that every living thing is important for me it's about how much that particular thing affects the things around it. That's why execution under certain circumstances are fine. It's not because of elephants being less important or the person more important the person did something unsafe and paid the ultimate price for it as for the elephant hopefully it's death will help the other animals and people. If it turns out this was somehow illegal or caused excessive suffering to the elephant then I will view it as immoral. Same with killing ants it's bad to kill them just for the fun of it or kill them in a way that is cruel.


I think the most succinct but effective argument was put forth by Peter Singer, on the question of "Can it feel pain?" or "Can it suffer?" That being said, my sample arguments put forth that I believe Jeremy Bentham came up with was mainly concerns outcomes, which makes sense, as Bentham was one of the most famous utilitarians.

Yours concerns reasons, and goes into virtue ethics, which I strongly believe in.

To illustrate the strength for others, say a criminal intended to mug a random passerby and kills him just for his wallet. However, it reveals that the murder was that of a vicious serial killer that said criminal was unaware of, and whom the city has feared. The action may harvest great results, but the criminal acted for ignoble reasons, and would have likely killed a mother of 4 just as easily, and is still very much a threat. Ignoble reasoning will always make one an ignoble in personality in my view, no matter what, regardless of the benefits of their actions.

So I agree with your general assessment of ant killing. I still consider it a dick move.
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Posted 5/22/17

auroraloose wrote:
Even if they are endangered, poached, and whatever you can think of, elephants are just dumb, walking pieces of meat.


Elephants, and most other animals for that matter, aren't dumb.... In fact, there are some animals out there that are smarter than humans. Animal lives matter for the balance of the planet.
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Posted 5/22/17 , edited 5/23/17

PeripheralVisionary wrote:
To illustrate the strength for others, say a criminal intended to mug a random passerby and kills him just for his wallet. However, it reveals that the murder was that of a vicious serial killer that said criminal was unaware of, and whom the city has feared. The action may harvest great results, but the criminal acted for ignoble reasons, and would have likely killed a mother of 4 just as easily, and is still very much a threat. Ignoble reasoning will always make one an ignoble in personality in my view, no matter what, regardless of the benefits of their actions.

So I agree with your general assessment of ant killing. I still consider it a dick move.


Killing the person in that instance would be wrong to me still it's not up to a single person with no evidence whether someone lives or dies and the mugger is just as dangerous an individual. To be honest I do not know the people you mentioned but I believe pain and suffering is something which changes from living thing to living thing (yes I include plants) I don't think of them as being dumb or senseless just having different perceptions, thresholds and coping mechanisms.
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Posted 5/22/17 , edited 5/23/17

b17bomber wrote:also this will make many big game hunters going to Africa or India within a couple months reconsider about what they are partaking in


I'd imagine an opposite effect. Hunters love the challenge of a kill. The more dangerous the hunt the more the thrill.

Just some info: The largest group of people hunting exotic animals are the Chinese. There's been a surge of young rich Chinese who hunt exotic animals like some luxurious fade. It's gotten nasty and out of control. Even the WWF who are not opposed to controlled hunting believe the Chinese are not meeting the required criteria.
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