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Post Reply now this is irony (hunter crushed by Elephant his friend shot)
runec 
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Posted 5/22/17 , edited 5/23/17

auroraloose wrote:
I think the internet makes us forget that people we don't like, and people we disagree with, are just as human as we are. So this thread really bothers me.


Given that this guy's safari's hunt leopards, lions ( vulnerable ), elephants ( vulnerable ) and tigers ( critically endangered ) I really don't have any sympathy. His website has 8 years worth of pictures of him and other white dickheads posing over corpses of animals whose very existence is threatened.

He also specializes in monteria hunting. AKA sending out 10-12 dogs to chase down one animal so some rich people can get a shot off and pose with it. There is no purpose to this beyond "sport" and it's not even very sporting to begin with.

If you aren't going to eat it, don't shoot it.

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Posted 5/23/17 , edited 5/23/17

runec wrote:


auroraloose wrote:
I think the internet makes us forget that people we don't like, and people we disagree with, are just as human as we are. So this thread really bothers me.


Given that this guy's safari's hunt leopards, lions ( vulnerable ), elephants ( vulnerable ) and tigers ( critically endangered ) I really don't have any sympathy. His website has 8 years worth of pictures of him and other white dickheads posing over corpses of animals whose very existence is threatened.

He also specializes in monteria hunting. AKA sending out 10-12 dogs to chase down one animal so some rich people can get a shot off and pose with it. There is no purpose to this beyond "sport" and it's not even very sporting to begin with.

If you aren't going to eat it, don't shoot it.



What if the hunts are fully by the book and that elephant and other animals where carefully selected by people who's job is to select these animals to be killed to fund the support of other animals. I don't see why race comes into play here I'd have thought that it would have been reprehensible for anyone to kill an animal senselessly I bring this up purely because I am sick of race being brought into everything. I don't know anything about the guy other than an elephant crushed him so am not going to jump to him being a criminal and am not defending him I am simply bringing up that some people claim that trophy hunting can make good things happen when handled correctly through some documentaries and charities and other organizations alluding to it or out right admitting it I trust they are doing their job right and know better than I do.

http://wwf.panda.org/what_we_do/how_we_work/our_global_goals/species_programme/species_news/wwf_and_trophy_hunting/

Edited to add hyperlink for sake of ease
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Posted 5/23/17

namealreadytaken wrote:


SandyNewt wrote:


octorockandroll wrote:

I wish this happened to poachers instead of actual, respectable, legal hunters.


Yeah hunters often get a bad name population control is important and maintaining an area doesn't come cheap...

the WWF claims African Elephant is a "vulnerable" species, so population control for elephant really isn't needed. especially considering the illegal ivory trade.
as for me, i can't say killing wild animals for sports or amusement is respectable, even if it can be useful for population control
(which is not the case here)
https://www.worldwildlife.org/species/african-elephant


Thats true but where they were it was legal so o/ poor men.
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Posted 5/23/17

SandyNewt wrote:
What if the hunts are fully by the book and that elephant and other animals where carefully selected by people who's job is to select these animals to be killed to fund the support of other animals.


He stumbled into a herd of pregnant elephants. They reacted accordingly. Elephants are highly intelligent and social creatures. He fucked up, his buddy tried to help him and ended up with an elephant on top of him. Ironically, he was sort of done in by one of his own customers.



SandyNewt wrote:I don't see why race comes into play here I'd have thought that it would have been reprehensible for anyone to kill an animal senselessly I bring this up purely because I am sick of race being brought into everything.


Africa has a rich history of ye ol' European colonialism and big game hunting is a part of that. You'd be very hard pressed to find anyone that isn't rich and white indulging in the activity. Considering the conservation status of much of what he's hunting ( even putting aside humane concerns ) yeah I have no sympathy.

Again, the guy specializes in a European hound hunting. He takes 10-12 dogs out and they chase some poor animal around or trap it up a tree so some rich fucks can shoot it then pose with its corpse. It's a canned hunt for rich white people to feel manly. He leads them out, makes sure the animal is an easy shot then takes their picture. It's basically a tourism industry.

You pick where you want to go, which of his lodges you want to stay at and what animal you want to shoot from some odd 14-15 choices and he makes sure you don't have to do anything except pull the trigger.


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Posted 5/23/17
I never understood the appeal of trophy hunting. I mean, one successful hunt pretty much eliminates the need for any future hunts, right?
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Posted 5/23/17

runec wrote:


SandyNewt wrote:
What if the hunts are fully by the book and that elephant and other animals where carefully selected by people who's job is to select these animals to be killed to fund the support of other animals.


He stumbled into a herd of pregnant elephants. They reacted accordingly. Elephants are highly intelligent and social creatures. He fucked up, his buddy tried to help him and ended up with an elephant on top of him. Ironically, he was sort of done in by one of his own customers.



SandyNewt wrote:I don't see why race comes into play here I'd have thought that it would have been reprehensible for anyone to kill an animal senselessly I bring this up purely because I am sick of race being brought into everything.


Africa has a rich history of ye ol' European colonialism and big game hunting is a part of that. You'd be very hard pressed to find anyone that isn't rich and white indulging in the activity. Considering the conservation status of much of what he's hunting ( even putting aside humane concerns ) yeah I have no sympathy.

Again, the guy specializes in a European hound hunting. He takes 10-12 dogs out and they chase some poor animal around or trap it up a tree so some rich fucks can shoot it then pose with its corpse. It's a canned hunt for rich white people to feel manly. He leads them out, makes sure the animal is an easy shot then takes their picture. It's basically a tourism industry.

You pick where you want to go, which of his lodges you want to stay at and what animal you want to shoot from some odd 14-15 choices and he makes sure you don't have to do anything except pull the trigger.


Not fun times for him then. I am aware elephants aren't dumb no animal is dumb all of them have method to what they do even plants.

pretty much every continent has had big game hunting some people it's a power fantasy others it's for a reason other than just power it's probably a tale as old as man it has never exclusively been Europeans. I'm not going to disagree that that method of hunting is acceptable even fox hunting is horrible I am not defending the individual just when it is managed correctly it can have positive results. It is tourism.

here is some examples of not Europeans hunting
http://voices.nationalgeographic.com/2015/08/05/cat-out-of-the-bag-trophy-hunting-fuels-african-lion-bone-trade-in-asia/
https://support.wwf.org.uk/adopt-a-rhino/?pc=AQJ001002&ds_medium=cpc&gclid=CPD3_a6PhtQCFUa6GwodrkAOqA&gclsrc=aw.ds
It is also well known despite being Europeans but it counts since it is pre-colonial that the Roman's had animals slaughtered in irrepressible amounts for blood sports other than hunting along with the Egyptians hunting animals for sport again I am not going to say i agree with that types of uncontrolled hunting with no benefit just putting it out that European colonialism wasn't the first or last.


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Posted 5/23/17

runec wrote:


auroraloose wrote:
I think the internet makes us forget that people we don't like, and people we disagree with, are just as human as we are. So this thread really bothers me.


Given that this guy's safari's hunt leopards, lions ( vulnerable ), elephants ( vulnerable ) and tigers ( critically endangered ) I really don't have any sympathy. His website has 8 years worth of pictures of him and other white dickheads posing over corpses of animals whose very existence is threatened.

He also specializes in monteria hunting. AKA sending out 10-12 dogs to chase down one animal so some rich people can get a shot off and pose with it. There is no purpose to this beyond "sport" and it's not even very sporting to begin with.

If you aren't going to eat it, don't shoot it.



You found some information relevant to your perspective; did you also learn if he has a family? Or perhaps participated in his community, or did some philanthropy? Suppose he was single, did nothing for anyone besides himself, and no one liked him. Did he participate in our common humanity?

I could go at this another direction: what is your opinion of the death penalty?
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Posted 5/23/17 , edited 5/23/17
Legal hunting or otherwise, he new the risks, or should have. Shit happens.
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Posted 5/23/17
I assume that people have seen an anime called Attack On Titan

One of those things fall on you, while dead or alive, and you're done for.

...Same with elephants because you know, they're big and heavy?

Simple law of gravity at work
runec 
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Posted 5/23/17

auroraloose wrote:
You found some information relevant to your perspective; did you also learn if he has a family? Or perhaps participated in his community, or did some philanthropy? Suppose he was single, did nothing for anyone besides himself, and no one liked him. Did he participate in our common humanity?

I could go at this another direction: what is your opinion of the death penalty?


Yes, I did. Yes he does. No he didn't.

I would call that direction into question. This guy was not sentenced to death. He under took a profession he knew ( or at least should know ) could result in his demise. Especially given a friend and fellow trophy hunter of his was killed recently as well ( by alligators ). He made a mistake and he paid for it. Me having little sympathy for his death due to the morality or lack thereof of his profession is different from actively calling for his death.




SandyNewt wrote:
pretty much every continent has had big game hunting some people it's a power fantasy others it's for a reason other than just power it's probably a tale as old as man it has never exclusively been Europeans. I'm not going to disagree that that method of hunting is acceptable even fox hunting is horrible I am not defending the individual just when it is managed correctly it can have positive results. It is tourism.


When managed properly, sure. But this guy has two vulnerable and one endangered species on his kill gallery list. Plus its difficult to manage trophy hunting when its put alongside a large scale poaching industry. While I can see common predator / prey species being balanced by working with trophy hunters, elephants are a different thing all together.
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Posted 5/24/17

runec wrote:


auroraloose wrote:
You found some information relevant to your perspective; did you also learn if he has a family? Or perhaps participated in his community, or did some philanthropy? Suppose he was single, did nothing for anyone besides himself, and no one liked him. Did he participate in our common humanity?

I could go at this another direction: what is your opinion of the death penalty?


Yes, I did. Yes he does. No he didn't.

I would call that direction into question. This guy was not sentenced to death. He under took a profession he knew ( or at least should know ) could result in his demise. Especially given a friend and fellow trophy hunter of his was killed recently as well ( by alligators ). He made a mistake and he paid for it. Me having little sympathy for his death due to the morality or lack thereof of his profession is different from actively calling for his death.


Hmm. I also looked around, but I couldn't find anything that even touched on his involvement in his community, other than being a large presence in the big game hunting community. (Though this is actually incorrect: having a family is an important contribution to society. Botha had five children.) So, unless you found this information, you can't say conclusively that he did not have any involvement in his community other than his hunting business. I'd wait for an official obituary.

It is true that, unlike many others, you have neither called for nor celebrated his death. And though you seem morally opposed to his kind of hunting, what I'm trying to point out doesn't really concern the morality issue. The problem is that, while you can make simple arguments that sound nice to you, you haven't interrogated them at all: People who commit crimes and are sentenced to death also make mistakes and pay for them. They do very immoral things, and thus garner little to no sympathy - and, rather, receive the opposite. Yet we don't argue against the death penalty solely because some people are wrongly convicted; we also consider the punishment cruel. We think of the criminal's plight and history, and if we're smart we'll mention Rawls's veil of ignorance. What world and circumstances brought the person to committing this crime? And even acknowledging human agency, how far ought we to go in meting punishment?

So even if you didn't call for the guy's death, you ignored the cruelty of death and humanity's radical sameness. You could easily have applied the reasoning above to this situation. Instead you called his big game hunter friends "white dickheads". What you find important, where you put your focus, is just as relevant as what you actually say. So sure, the guy was doing something morally dubious at best; my focus is on the internet horde perfectly fine with celebrating the guy's death just because they had a reasonable moral disagreement with him. He didn't actually kill a person, and though moral valuations are not the easiest things, I'm willing to say that there are many crimes that are much worse even considering the relative frequencies of occurrences. And though I ought to be jaded at this point, I'm still shocked at the callousness the average person online is displaying in this circumstance.
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Posted 5/24/17 , edited 5/24/17

auroraloose wrote:
Hmm. I also looked around, but I couldn't find anything that even touched on his involvement in his community, other than being a large presence in the big game hunting community. (Though this is actually incorrect: having a family is an important contribution to society. Botha had five children.) So, unless you found this information, you can't say conclusively that he did not have any involvement in his community other than his hunting business. I'd wait for an official obituary.


He only visits the states periodically to drum up customers from what I read. Otherwise him and his family live "on site" so to speak. Also, knocking someone up is not a contribution to society by itself. His business is actually a family business as well. You're basically making a moral "buy back" argument. That perhaps there is something good enough to justify the bad. As in, okay yes he kills vulnerable and endangered animals and has spent years enjoying posing in for the camera with his corpses but hey maybe he likes kittens and donates to the SPCA. It would not matter what "good" he does in secret when he has devoted his career to the "bad". It would not negate it morally speaking.

Your argument hinges more on an unknown than mine does.



auroraloose wrote:What world and circumstances brought the person to committing this crime? And even acknowledging human agency, how far ought we to go in meting punishment?


I still frankly think you're going apples and oranges here. You're effectively arguing legal law vs natural law. This guy was not sentenced to death by the will of a society that empowered the state to take his life. He made a mistake around large, dangerous animals that he routinely kills and who reacted to him naturally as a threat. He was in a dangerous line of work. However, you would not use a similar phrase to describe the activities of a serial killer.



auroraloose wrote:
So even if you didn't call for the guy's death, you ignored the cruelty of death and humanity's radical sameness. You could easily have applied the reasoning above to this situation. Instead you called his big game hunter friends "white dickheads". What you find important, where you put your focus, is just as relevant as what you actually say. So sure, the guy was doing something morally dubious at best; my focus is on the internet horde perfectly fine with celebrating the guy's death just because they had a reasonable moral disagreement with him. He didn't actually kill a person, and though moral valuations are not the easiest things, I'm willing to say that there are many crimes that are much worse even considering the relative frequencies of occurrences. And though I ought to be jaded at this point, I'm still shocked at the callousness the average person online is displaying in this circumstance.


So, I did not call for the guy's death but I ignored your philosophical opinions about morality and humanity? That is a strange argument to be trying to make here. I can't "easily" apply your reasoning unless I hold identical beliefs and opinions on the topic you interjected. Which, if I did, we would quite likely not be having this conversation to begin with.

My focus is on the countless vulnerable or endangered animals this guy drummed up to let rich people shoot in exchange for money. With elephants being a particularly sour point given how highly intelligent, social and emotionally complex animals they are. This guy isn't just a big game hunter himself, he also makes his living by having other people pay him to go out and find an animal they can shoot with the least amount of effort. Its quite literally the entire style of hunting he claims to be an expert on.

Doing it yourself is morally dubious to begin with. Hiring yourself out to anyone that would like you to set it up for them so they can brag they shot an elephant is even more morally dubious. Furthermore, he originally did work for the government. Hunting for conservation purposes ( specifically, leopards and lions that were problems in a national park ). But after that he decided to make a business of it and went from hunting problem animals on behalf of the government to basically being paid by tourists to shoot anything that lives in the surrounding area.

So, "morally" speaking, he actually did originally hunt on behalf of animal conservation. But it didn't live up to his passions or his pocketbook it seems.







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Posted 5/26/17

runec wrote:
When managed properly, sure. But this guy has two vulnerable and one endangered species on his kill gallery list. Plus its difficult to manage trophy hunting when its put alongside a large scale poaching industry. While I can see common predator / prey species being balanced by working with trophy hunters, elephants are a different thing all together.


They sometimes handle it case by case they sometimes call it a "problem animal" animals are capable of independent thought and motives. Elephants can destroy large areas of land vegetation in a relatively short time... I am not saying it's their fault or they should be killed for it (if anything the opposite it's peoples fault and people should take responsibility for it for forcing them into a bad situation) what I am saying is by decreasing the amount of land they have decreases their food supplies and leads them to becoming starved or take bigger risks to get food. Elephants can be devastating to an area and vicious no animal is a cuddly creature capable of no harm to anything else rabbits and deer are also animals when left unattended will ruin areas of land if given a chance.
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Posted 5/26/17

SandyNewt wrote:
They sometimes handle it case by case they sometimes call it a "problem animal" animals are capable of independent thought and motives. Elephants can destroy large areas of land vegetation in a relatively short time... I am not saying it's their fault or they should be killed for it (if anything the opposite it's peoples fault and people should take responsibility for it for forcing them into a bad situation) what I am saying is by decreasing the amount of land they have decreases their food supplies and leads them to becoming starved or take bigger risks to get food. Elephants can be devastating to an area and vicious no animal is a cuddly creature capable of no harm to anything else rabbits and deer are also animals when left unattended will ruin areas of land if given a chance.


Yes, as I was saying above there that's what this guy use to do. Work with the government to track down problem / destructive animals. But now its just hunting tourism. Elephants are most certainly dangerous given their size and intelligence. Though he would have well known that. He stumbled into a family group with a number of pregnant females so of course he got charged. One of them caught him by surprise from the side when he was facing a charge from the others.

Though it wasn't directly the elephant that killed him. The fourth one had grabbed him with her trunk and one of the guys on the hunting tour with him shot it, with him in it's grasp. Hence how it fell on him.

Given their intelligence, it's not entirely impossible that the elephants in the area were aware of and extra cautious/aggressive towards humans because of the long term hunting. His company uses fixed permanent camps as staging areas so they've certainly been in, around and using the same areas for several years.

Practically everything in range of his camps is up for grabs according to his website. Anything from baboons to crocodiles.

Even hippos. Which seems like just asking for trouble.

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