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Post Reply A question for the religious people
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19 / M / The big Panhandle...
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Posted 5/24/17 , edited 6/2/17

PeripheralVisionary wrote:

What is the point? They will kill you anyway for not being Muslim. In any case, there is a Christian Bale movie based on a book about the subject Silence by Shūsaku Endō. Pretty great read. The most compelling scenario is "Would you renounce if others were being tortured on the condition you won't?"

I think the answer is that if they threaten to off someone unless you say a few mere words, do things to idols, etc, you should do it. Likewise, you should not do anything of great cruelty, such as beating a child. Quite frankly, I would rather die.

I am not sure about your scenario. I always found martyrdom to be thankless and hardly invigorating, except for the monk that set himself on fire during the events precipitating the Vietnam war.

It is your life in this scenario, and I think it seems like it is your choice.

I am not sure if it is a specific line, but you presume God is not a dick. Let us run with that, and ask if God would get mad if you did happen to renounce your faith to save your life, and who is the real dick here.

I believe a "loving" god will understand, but who knows?


Well, first, lemme start out by saying you're wrong about referring people to a "Christian Bale movie." It wasn't a Christian Bale movie. Andrew Garfield and Adam Driver starred in SIlence. It was directed by Martin Scorsese. That automatically diminishes your credibility so I can't take you seriously from the get-go. Second, even at the seasoned age of 20, your worldview is extremely simplistic. Let's take the philosophic question of: Is it alright to murder someone, and why/why not? You'd probably say, "It's obviously not ok." I'd say, "It's not that simple." I came to that conclusion from your black and white interpretation of a "'loving' god." Being a loving God has nothing to do with punishing your followers. A loving God takes care of his flock. A loving God lets his flock suffer at times. A loving God tests his flock. Those are the things a loving god does. Not always does a loving God have to nurture his flock. Tell me, would you ever pray to a God you never thought you needed? The anime Youjo Senki tackles that issue. Why would we bother praying or tithing when we have everything we need? We, as humans, wouldn't. God has to anchor us somehow, because he knows his creatures are inherently flawed.

I say you go and learn a little about the world before you apply your narrow views on it.
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18 / M / Valhalla
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Posted 5/24/17

D4nc3Style wrote:

I'd tell ISIS to go fuck a goat.


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51 / M / Inside the Anime...
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Posted 5/24/17

redokami wrote:

If you were taken hostage, by lets say, isis and were forced to confess your religion otherwise you would die-like how they have done it before
Would you say your true religion,and not deny your god in that moment even though you will die
Or would you say you are muslim to save your life?

I honestly dont know what I woulddo..i have thought both



I'd probably be dead. They wouldn't let me live. I'd have to be tied up pretty good for me to go passively. Otherwise, I'll try to kill until I get killed. Remember, they really aren't trying to convert you, they really do want to kill you. If a Mormon comes to your door, they are trying to convert you. Even terrorists aren't stupid enough to believe in conversion at gun point. They just want to make you beg, degrade you, and then if not satisfied, kill you. So if you think a black American wouldn't be killed on the spot....you gotta be crazy. Better to get killed with a bullet fast than tortured into a confession and then having your throat slit. You assume that they are reasonable. Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims and Atheists can be reasonable and worked with because most are everyday people, once they go fundamentalist it becomes more difficult. Once they become radical, you had better stay clear. It means they are willing to do anything to mold the world into their personal version of hell.
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28 / F / UK
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Posted 5/24/17
I am catholic and you do know the muslims, like the jews are supposed to have the same god as us. So I would just say my own religion because I wouldn't care since ISIS are crazy and Im sure they would kill me anyway.
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51 / M / Inside the Anime...
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Posted 5/24/17

octorockandroll wrote:

They're probably going to kill you either way so why bother?


Exactly!! Best to spit in their eye, click your heels three times and pray for a fast beheading. Because they really hate you in the first place.
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Posted 5/24/17

-Hachi- wrote:

I am catholic and you do know the muslims, like the jews are supposed to have the same god as us. So I would just say my own religion because I wouldn't care since ISIS are crazy and Im sure they would kill me anyway.


Yes exactly. I would not denounce my religion.
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25 / F / PA, USA
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Posted 5/24/17
Atheist, and I wouldn't bother lying. Being a woman, much less, American, my future would be grim, regardless. Being tortured and killed soon after opening my mouth would probably be more merciful than a number of the alternatives.
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21 / M / Oppai Hell
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Posted 5/24/17 , edited 5/24/17

kokokoko11 wrote:


PeripheralVisionary wrote:

What is the point? They will kill you anyway for not being Muslim. In any case, there is a Christian Bale movie based on a book about the subject Silence by Shūsaku Endō. Pretty great read. The most compelling scenario is "Would you renounce if others were being tortured on the condition you won't?"

I think the answer is that if they threaten to off someone unless you say a few mere words, do things to idols, etc, you should do it. Likewise, you should not do anything of great cruelty, such as beating a child. Quite frankly, I would rather die.

I am not sure about your scenario. I always found martyrdom to be thankless and hardly invigorating, except for the monk that set himself on fire during the events precipitating the Vietnam war.

It is your life in this scenario, and I think it seems like it is your choice.

I am not sure if it is a specific line, but you presume God is not a dick. Let us run with that, and ask if God would get mad if you did happen to renounce your faith to save your life, and who is the real dick here.

I believe a "loving" god will understand, but who knows?


Well, first, lemme start out by saying you're wrong about referring people to a "Christian Bale movie." It wasn't a Christian Bale movie. Andrew Garfield and Adam Driver starred in SIlence. It was directed by Martin Scorsese. That automatically diminishes your credibility so I can't take you seriously from the get-go. Second, even at the seasoned age of 20, your worldview is extremely simplistic. Let's take the philosophic question of: Is it alright to murder someone, and why/why not? You'd probably say, "It's obviously not ok." I'd say, "It's not that simple." I came to that conclusion from your black and white interpretation of a "'loving' god." Being a loving God has nothing to do with punishing your followers. A loving God takes care of his flock. A loving God lets his flock suffer at times. A loving God tests his flock. Those are the things a loving god does. Not always does a loving God have to nurture his flock. Tell me, would you ever pray to a God you never thought you needed? The anime Youjo Senki tackles that issue. Why would we bother praying or tithing when we have everything we need? We, as humans, wouldn't. God has to anchor us somehow, because he knows his creatures are inherently flawed.

I say you go and learn a little about the world before you apply your narrow views on it.


Oh, it was Andrew Garfield, ah, now I remember. I am not sure about credibility as much as authority, which would I believe imply inaccuracy about something I believe is subjective view or morals, which are not stated "facts", whereas authority gives me the apparent experience necessary to say what should be done, which I do probably lack. I think you are being a bit too hard with trying to establish a sense of credibility, or lack there of, over what amounts to a simple mistake concerning popular cinema, which I find wholly ridiculous when applies to an example regarding the moral debate of an issue.

That being said, I want to address this line.


I came to that conclusion from your black and white interpretation of a "'loving' god." Being a loving God has nothing to do with punishing your followers. A loving God takes care of his flock. A loving God lets his flock suffer at times. A loving God tests his flock. Those are the things a loving god does. Not always does a loving God have to nurture his flock. Tell me, would you ever pray to a God you never thought you needed? The anime Youjo Senki tackles that issue. Why would we bother praying or tithing when we have everything we need? We, as humans, wouldn't. God has to anchor us somehow, because he knows his creatures are inherently flawed.


I never did provide arguments as to why I (hopefully) would not kill someone in that exact situation, I just wanted to say what I felt was the right thing to do, or rather, what would I want to do if placed in that situation. I apologize for not providing additional arguments to uphold my claim.

In any case, I would hope if Redokami did renounce her faith, God would forgive her, instead of punishing her. I most certainly would hope so if she did renounce it to save another, even if it did turn out to be meaningless in the end. I find the idea of abiding by such a minor and iron clad rule to be a bit ridiculous, especially when it concerns others who may not share the faith, but may die because one is unwilling to sacrifice breaking such a rule. My idea is that certain rules should abide by some measure of leniency as to the circumstances, similar to the concept that lying is not morally wrong when used to secure the safety of an innocent. Something I believe a loving God would allow if he is to my idea of "loving", which is of course just my subjective view of what qualifies as loving.

As to the threat of personal salvation and living, I think the choice may be hers, as I understand religion is important to them, regardless of my own belief in that religion. I would not think she did anything wrong if it just concerned herself, but I use "loving" in quotes for this reason. God may be a jerk, he may not exist, I do not know. I never meet the guy, know if he is a sentient force of nature, a cosmic law that dictates morality, or anything. I think it is best to entertain the possibility rather than choose a certainty because I do not think anyone knows for certain.

My view is black and white, as I never been a fan of "gray" acts that I would not otherwise denote as neutral. I try to further define things by circumstances, rather than stating "taking another life is wrong" versus my usual "Taking a life in this circumstance is wrong." For this scenario, I have likened it to a more temporary capture that will inevitably give way to rescue efforts, as are the Philippines presumably, rather than what Elie Wiesel went through in Night, though I left it out because I thought it was understood, just as renouncing your religion us in those scenarios I mentioned. I apologize for that.

Hopefully I am not troubling you. I am not quite sure I comprehend the rest of the piece I just quoted in response to my claim, but it may be a bit late for me to comprehend with a clear mind. Which seems to me to state that God would not punish Redokami for renouncing her faith on Earth in that scenario, hence the "A loving god is not about punishing".

To reiterate, I am not proclaiming to know about God, because I do not. I merely considered the possibly of him being a dick, and possibly not being a "loving" deity, hence my aim that it would be a dick move to punish Redokami in that scenario, and thus, would likely not be loving, ending that if Redokami believes that God is loving and has faith in it, I think she need not worry.

My usual arguments in such situations are no show, but it seems more like an issue of moral consistency regarding rules I do not "follow" because I do not subscribe to said religion, even though I consider some to be common among cultures and ideologies.
mxdan 
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27 / M / A Husk.
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Posted 5/24/17 , edited 5/24/17

octorockandroll wrote:

They're probably going to kill you either way so why bother?


Well following the hypothetical there are two choices - You live by renouncing faith, or die by accepting another.

To that point I think there are two likely things to happen. In the end either I'm idealistic enough to stick to what I always have, or fear gets to me and I don't. We idolize courage but I think we under value the will to survive. If I were to bet on myself, in that scenario, it would more then likely be a near impossible thing to fight. I think for most of us, the vast majority, your very survival would take precedence and cause you do do things you would regret.

IE when you want to live in immediate stress you probably aren't thinking about long term consequences.

I think I would probably choose my survival. But then again I'm not all that religious so maybe I'm the wrong person to ask.
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Posted 5/24/17
I would never deny my religion I would rather die then do that .
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28 / M / Magpies nest
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Posted 5/24/17
I don't deny the 5 gods but to survive? Sure.
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40 / M / right here!
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Posted 5/24/17
I would say I'm Muslim if it would save my life. Then again, I'm not affiliated with any religion so saying, "I'm a Muslim." has the same feeling as saying, "I like brussel sprouts."
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F / Antique bookshop
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Posted 5/24/17
but how can you assume that the person who is threatening your life is not from the same religion as you ?
qwueri 
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31 / M
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Posted 5/24/17
I probably wouldn't make it to that point, they'd either be dead/incapacitated or I would be.
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