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Post Reply A question for the religious people
runec 
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Posted 5/24/17

redokami wrote:
If you were taken hostage, by lets say, isis and were forced to confess your religion otherwise you would die-like how they have done it before
Would you say your true religion,and not deny your god in that moment even though you will die
Or would you say you are muslim to save your life?

I honestly dont know what I woulddo..i have thought both



-AnimeGirl56- wrote:
I would never deny my religion I would rather die then do that .


This is actually pretty simple. Ask yourself one question:

Do you really believe your god to be so petty and merciless as to want you to be killed horribly rather than lie about him?

Because if he is, then frankly he isn't that much better than the god of the guy threatening to kill you.

On the other hand, if you believe in a merciful and loving god, then said god would most certainly prefer that you live. He would not be so infantile as to get hung up on your words rather than your heart.

If you do not believe the former, but are unwilling to speak a lie to save yourself then you're going to die not for your beliefs. But rather for your pride.




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Posted 5/24/17

runec wrote:


redokami wrote:
If you were taken hostage, by lets say, isis and were forced to confess your religion otherwise you would die-like how they have done it before
Would you say your true religion,and not deny your god in that moment even though you will die
Or would you say you are muslim to save your life?

I honestly dont know what I woulddo..i have thought both



-AnimeGirl56- wrote:
I would never deny my religion I would rather die then do that .


This is actually pretty simple. Ask yourself one question:

Do you really believe your god to be so petty and merciless as to want you to be killed horribly rather than lie about him?

Because if he is, then frankly he isn't that much better than the god of the guy threatening to kill you.

On the other hand, if you believe in a merciful and loving god, then said god would most certainly prefer that you live. He would not be so infantile as to get hung up on your words rather than your heart.

If you do not believe the former, but are unwilling to speak a lie to save yourself then you're going to die not for your beliefs. But rather for your pride.






I'd have to make a response here that you might not understand.

If God is, as Christians claim a being that which is nothing is higher in being such that He is the source of all being. That God would also know that it is worse than death to deny his existence. We should also know it by the simple definition of highest being. Since denial of God by definition denial of all goods of existence and of the source of those goods. Like saying one hates their parents taken to literal infinity in its magnitude. Not just parents but every good event in ones entire life and every cause of those events. This is never a good thing to do casually, and really not something even worth doing to presumably save ones own life.

A second matter is the fact that Christians believe a lot of things about God. Most notably they believe that God has the power to grant eternal life. The fact that eternal life is offered by God to every devout believer changes the scales of what is good in this case. Assuming that one is going to die anyway either be it in fifty seconds, or fifty years, death is certain. It would seem better to bet ones long term interest on what may grant one eternal life. Not disdaining the source of goodness itself, or the source of mercy. Further it is said by Christians that God is trustworthy beyond anything that is trustworthy. If God promises eternal life he will grant it.

I would note now that there are Christians who take the teachings of God a step beyond the original premise here: http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/04/27/christian-widow-stuns-tv-host-when-she-forgives-isis-terrorist-who-killed-her-husband/

In this news article and there are other places where Christians pray for God to forgive the killers of their children and relatives. That is also a profound belief in God which is beyond the premise of the main topic. But it is related to the point about eternal life which God gives to those who believe in him.
runec 
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Posted 5/24/17

Holofernes wrote:
I'd have to make a response here that you might not understand.

If God is, as Christians claim a being that which is nothing is higher in being such that He is the source of all being. That God would also know that it is worse than death to deny his existence. We should also know it by the simple definition of highest being. Since denial of God by definition denial of all goods of existence and of the source of those goods. Like saying one hates their parents taken to literal infinity in its magnitude. Not just parents but every good event in ones entire life and every cause of those events. This is never a good thing to do casually, and really not something even worth doing to presumably save ones own life.


So a being of this absolute magnitude cannot separate words from beliefs? Acceptance of him is so profoundly shallow that it can be shattered by mere words? He cannot be the highest being in creation and not grasp moral nuance you could easily explain to a 10 year old.



Holofernes wrote:
A second matter is the fact that Christians believe a lot of things about God. Most notably they believe that God has the power to grant eternal life. The fact that eternal life is offered by God to every devout believer changes the scales of what is good in this case. Assuming that one is going to die anyway either be it in fifty seconds, or fifty years, death is certain. It would seem better to bet ones long term interest on what may grant one eternal life. Not disdaining the source of goodness itself, or the source of mercy. Further it is said by Christians that God is trustworthy beyond anything that is trustworthy. If God promises eternal life he will grant it.


You're drifting into 72 virgins territory.

I must have missed that part in Sunday School. What specific denomination are you taking about? Christians are not homogeneous.
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Posted 5/24/17
i would like to say i would not deny my faith

but if i came to that situation, i don't really know what i'd do. but i hope i would do right by my beliefs
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Posted 5/24/17 , edited 5/24/17

runec wrote:

So a being of this absolute magnitude cannot separate words from beliefs? Acceptance of him is so profoundly shallow that it can be shattered by mere words? He cannot be the highest being in creation and not grasp moral nuance you could easily explain to a 10 year old.


You're assuming that words are meaningless. Why would this be the case? If that was the case then our discussion is fundamentally irrelevant. Saying that God is shallow over this is a denial of identities and convictions which are more fundamental then you realize.

Incidentally, ten year old's have actually understood this. I'll post a video of an example. But the answer is to take our original question of denial of God and replace God with something one might understand as precious. Say your dearest love?

Would you deny that you love someone whom you love more than life itself if you were actually called on that conviction?

What about a parent being told to kill their Child if they would live? In this case the Parent has to kill that which was their entire source of joy, the one whom they loved more then themselves. Even ones conviction in God is worth more than ones own life.

So its the same thing, since denial of faith in a being as great as God would be indistinct here. Simple deduction in really, I mean REALLY believing that God is the most important person to you.



runec
You're drifting into 72 virgins territory.


You probably don't understand what the differences are. Told you it might be difficult. 72 virgins are not what Jesus promised, and he didn't ask his followers to go kill people. A God that can grant eternal life, forgive sins, raise the dead, and create the uniiverse is infinitely greater than one who can grant a paltry 72 virgins.


runec I must have missed that part in Sunday School. What specific denomination are you taking about? Christians are not homogeneous.


Most of the ones that consider the Bible to be important since Jesus himself said:

Mark 8:38
For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in His Father's glory with the holy angels.

Matthew 10:33
Whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in heaven.

Luke 12:9

But whoever denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God.


Incidentally a great saint of Christians in the 4th century once told a Roman official who commanded him to simply renounce the divinity of Jesus responded:

Exile means nothing to me, since I am bound to no particular place. This place in which I now dwell is not mine, and any place you send me shall be mine. Better to say: every place is God’s. Where would I be neither a stranger and sojourner (Ps. 38/39:13)? Who can torture me? I am so weak, that the very first blow would render me insensible. Death would be a kindness to me, for it will bring me all the sooner to God, for Whom I live and labor, and to Whom I hasten -St Basil the Great


Video of 10 year old Girl who's faith is greater than many:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3pAxAHT0jg


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Posted 5/24/17 , edited 5/24/17
I'll say whatever it takes to survive. I'm a deist anyway so its not like I fear God watching what I say or even if there was an all seeing God, I doubt that God wouldn't understand the means to that end.

It's like the idiots who attack John McCain for saying what the Vietkong told him to say at gunpoint. Not a fan of his politics, but what was the man supposed to do? Act tough and get killed for it, get real people.
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Posted 5/24/17
I'd hold true to my religion. If I'm meant to go then, then so be it. I would hopefully not deny Christ in the hour before I may meet him.
runec 
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Posted 5/24/17

Holofernes wrote:
You're assuming that words are meaningless. Why would this be the case? If that was the case then our discussion is fundamentally irrelevant. Saying that God is shallow over this is a denial of identities and convictions which are more fundamental then you realize.


No, I am assuming that thoughts and beliefs are more important than mere words. No one ever says "Let God into your words" they say "Let God into your heart". So yes, it is shallow to base ones eternal hereafter on mere words uttered under threat of death.



Holofernes wrote:Would you deny that you love someone whom you love more than life itself if you were actually called on that conviction?


If I were called on it under threat of death? Yes, and I would want them to say the same for me. Because its much much much more important to me that the person I love is safe.



Holofernes wrote:What about a parent being told to kill their Child if they would live? In this case the Parent has to kill that which was their entire source of joy, the one whom they loved more then themselves. Even ones conviction in God is worth more than ones own life.


Now you're veering off into entirely different territory. Any given parent will lay down their life for their child. A much better analogy would be to ask you if you would punish your child for lying about you when someone was threatening to kill them if they didn't. Would you care more about saving the life of your child or punishing your child for lying about you even under threat of death?

If it's the latter, you're honestly a dick and so is your god.



Holofernes wrote:So its the same thing, since denial of faith in a being as great as God would be indistinct here. Simple deduction in really, I mean REALLY believing that God is the most important person to you.


It really isn't.



Holofernes wrote:
You probably don't understand what the differences are. Told you it might be difficult. 72 virgins are not what Jesus promised, and he didn't ask his followers to go kill people. A God that can grant eternal life, forgive sins, raise the dead, and create the uniiverse is infinitely greater than one who can grant a paltry 72 virgins.


Its not that I don't understand, it's that I don't agree. I did not say Jesus promised 72 virgins. I was making a criticism about throwing your life away in such a manner in exchange for a nebulous promise of reward in a supposed following life. Your death is of no benefit to anyone in this scenario. Your willingness to throw your life away in exchange for something you believe you were promised after death isn't much different than the 72 virgins stereotype.




Holofernes wrote:I must have missed that part in Sunday School. What specific denomination are you taking about? Christians are
Most of the ones that consider the Bible to be important since Jesus himself said:


Jesus also wasn't fond of people that made a display of their belief for display's sake.




Holofernes wrote:Incidentally a great saint of Christians in the 4th century once told a Roman official who commanded him to simply renounce the divinity of Jesus responded:


Incidentally, at the time of said saint's life there was still much disagreement among early Christians as to precisely what Jesus's divinity or lack there of was and how it related to god.


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Posted 5/24/17 , edited 5/24/17
That may have been the point of the novel I mentioned earlier. How can you ask someone to suffer for your beliefs that they may not hold, or at all, when mere words can liberate a person?

It is the same moral rigidity that people criticize Batman for, with the assertion that he is just being self righteous for his own sake in some stories.
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Posted 5/24/17
One could never ask for a greater honour.
Posted 5/25/17
Well, I would not be talking about religion with them at that point.

And I wouldn't say I'm Muslim just to survive, they kill Muslims too.
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Posted 5/25/17 , edited 5/25/17
It's a though decision, and harder to do than say.

I would want to stay by my religion but then again I see myself cowering in fear and saying otherwise..

This is a really difficult question to answer..
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Posted 5/25/17
I'd run my head straight into their weapon. If I'm gonna die regardless, I'm doing it on MY terms, not some filthy sand rat that kills for a imaginary friend.
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Posted 5/25/17
I'd fight tooth and nail. I would get no execution. If there going to kill me, I might as well try to kill them.
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Posted 5/25/17 , edited 5/25/17
Don't say anything lol Also the original post is pretty disrespectful and insensitive to all muslims. Also you obviously mean and Christian people which is not the only religion because they have many that have many Gods and you basically dismissed muslim faith which is a religion.
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