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Post Reply A question for the religious people
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Posted 5/25/17

runec wrote:
No, I am assuming that thoughts and beliefs are more important than mere words. No one ever says "Let God into your words" they say "Let God into your heart". So yes, it is shallow to base ones eternal hereafter on mere words uttered under threat of death.

You say that on the web. Tomorrow or another day you may say differently. Take threat of death out of the equation and it becomes problematic though wouldn't you agree?
If a man simply asks you to say that you don't love your most beloved for no reason, you would probably tell them all number of things other than that.
To get back to OP's question, to say that one must deny God or die and include that as a factor and it becomes a question about what is more important than your own life? That's all I'm pointing out here. Is there a conviction which is greater than life itself? Does a conviction really exist if one says and does the opposite of what is really meant?

A man who says he loves his wife but cheats on her, or a woman who says she loves her husband but does the same is not faithful and in both cases are acting contrary to their choice to love their spouse.


Holofernes wrote:Would you deny that you love someone whom you love more than life itself if you were actually called on that conviction?



runec If I were called on it under threat of death? Yes, and I would want them to say the same for me. Because its much much much more important to me that the person I love is safe.


I'd agree with you about forgiving another person for that. I'd say. I'd even say that likely God would too. But If it was you the question also includes the fact that you already owed that person your life many times over. Its difficult to formulate an example because you have to accept the premise at least in the hypothetical of how personally important and fundamentally important the person God is in this question. The reason why has to follow with the example below.


runec

Holofernes wrote:What about a parent being told to kill their Child if they would live? In this case the Parent has to kill that which was their entire source of joy, the one whom they loved more then themselves. Even ones conviction in God is worth more than ones own life.


Now you're veering off into entirely different territory. Any given parent will lay down their life for their child. A much better analogy would be to ask you if you would punish your child for lying about you when someone was threatening to kill them if they didn't. Would you care more about saving the life of your child or punishing your child for lying about you even under threat of death?

If it's the latter, you're honestly a dick and so is your god.


Except in this case, your analogy has to break down if we're attempting to get more specific and more accurate. We're going to have difficulty to make it more accurate. You have to realize how incredibly important it is to factor in the powers and comparative relational differences of God and mankind.

Since God would have hypothetically the ultimate power over life and death. In the eternal sense, a Christian wouldn't be dead. The comparison breaks down because God isn't seeing a case of his child being destroyed. And the Christian of faith isn't seeing themselves being destroyed. More really, in terms of accurate equivalence the scenario you describe would not be equal to the reality of God. More closely the analogy would be a question of whether you were willing to do something difficult for someone. Comparative differences that attempt to be more accurate as you described miss the nature of the relationship entirely. Dearest love is not so dear as to risk ones life for them. Your love not entirely selfless. There is a holding back at the point of death. When you said you wouldn't be willing to be called on that love. You actually said that the love wasn't that important to you. That it was not as great as the totally self sacrificial love of a Christian martyr. There is nothing a total as torture and death. Coincidentally Christians believe that God did the same for them. So there is a reciprocity that is part of it.

That's the emotional and intellectual case of it. Death and torment is meaningless to a Christian. Whole histories about Christian martyrdom testify to this. Not just in hundreds but in hundreds of thousands. You could look up current examples of it in contemporary news. I cited several. I told you that you probably wouldn't understand. It is impossible to understand if one doesn't factor in the power of God, or the mercy of God, or the existence of God.



runec

Holofernes wrote:So its the same thing, since denial of faith in a being as great as God would be indistinct here. Simple deduction in really, I mean REALLY believing that God is the most important person to you.


It really isn't.


It really is. Its just a matter of holding my original point about God being literally the greatest thing in ones life.



runec

Holofernes wrote:
You probably don't understand what the differences are. Told you it might be difficult. 72 virgins are not what Jesus promised, and he didn't ask his followers to go kill people. A God that can grant eternal life, forgive sins, raise the dead, and create the uniiverse is infinitely greater than one who can grant a paltry 72 virgins.


Its not that I don't understand, it's that I don't agree. I did not say Jesus promised 72 virgins. I was making a criticism about throwing your life away in such a manner in exchange for a nebulous promise of reward in a supposed following life. Your death is of no benefit to anyone in this scenario. Your willingness to throw your life away in exchange for something you believe you were promised after death isn't much different than the 72 virgins stereotype.


Except that you are not getting that in the real sense of things. You and I are all waiting to die no matter what argument is to be made. No one escapes death. So how can you throw away something that is lost no matter what you do? Assuming that God is real and that one believes Him to be real, for a Christian the ultimate answer is to accept the only being who promised them and is capable of changing that for them.


runec

Holofernes wrote:I must have missed that part in Sunday School. What specific denomination are you taking about? Christians are
Most of the ones that consider the Bible to be important since Jesus himself said:


Jesus also wasn't fond of people that made a display of their belief for display's sake.


If we're quoting Jesus we best do so with references.
Your right that He wasn't fond of people who "put God to the test" Luke 4:12.
He certainly wasn't fond of people who made out as if they were better than anyone else. Luke 18:14

But we have to remember that Jesus in the bible doesn't see things with only the eyes and perspective of people. Christians believe that Jesus is Man but that he is also God. Since "what is prized before men is detestable before God. Lk 16:15
The way God sees it is more like an invitation to a banquet, where a person has to leave behind less important excuses for ones which are properly greater. Lk 14:18

It gets back to those comparative differences in nature. For a Christian nothing is gained by denial since everything dies eventually. Better still not to put to death ones own true convictions put those convictions to death however hundreds of times. Better instead to hold onto them with the assurance that everything that was lost is to be brought back a hundred times over. Luke 18:29


runec

Holofernes wrote:Incidentally a great saint of Christians in the 4th century once told a Roman official who commanded him to simply renounce the divinity of Jesus responded:


Incidentally, at the time of said saint's life there was still much disagreement among early Christians as to precisely what Jesus's divinity or lack there of was and how it related to god.


Indeed. People are always changing what they say. But that's nothing new. Consistently he is referred to as God by many people. The interesting thing is that there are no Arians when nations and political powers were aligned for the Arians, but today Basil is celebrated as a saint.
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Posted 5/25/17
I would say whatever they want me to. In Islam, under such situations, it is allowed for one to deny or affirm their true beliefs. Although in the scenario you present, me being a Muslim, makes it redundant.
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Posted 5/26/17 , edited 5/29/17

Holofernes wrote:
It really is. Its just a matter of holding my original point about God being literally the greatest thing in ones life.


I'm just going to curtail what is promising to be nothing but a circular wall of text discussion and point out that you are arguing solely from the perspective of that belief. While likewise speaking on behalf of all Christians which you do not have the authority to do. If your god is so important to you that you are willing to accept death over mere worlds. Or worse yet, believe that god would want you to do so despite the suffering such a decision would entail for you and everyone in your life. Then fine, have at it. Personally, it strikes me as stupid, possibly selfish and shows a lower opinion of a higher power than a greater one.

But, using your belief as a universal truth is not an argument and it's certainly not the universal belief of all Christians. It is, as I said, drifting uncomfortably close to the sort of ideology currently threatening your life.

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Posted 5/26/17
If History is an indicator, some would become Apostates and some of us would not. It would depend upon that religious person's individual faith and relationship with God. I am a person of faith, not a religious person. My relationship is between me and my God, outward practice is not important to me and as everyone fails in comparison to the perfection of God. I would hope that my faith would sustain me and I would not deny my understanding of God. However I may proclaim that I would not, whereas the reality is I might be guilty of the Sin of Public Apostasy. I would expect and suspect that I would rather die and at this point in my life it would be easier to accept than when I was younger.
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Posted 5/26/17 , edited 5/26/17

runec wrote:


Holofernes wrote:
It really is. Its just a matter of holding my original point about God being literally the greatest thing in ones life.



I'm just going to curtail what is promising to be nothing but a circular wall of text discussion and point out that you are arguing solely from the perspective of that belief.


And what you believe is more valid? How did we get to discussion on validity? I'm only explaining what Jesus and Christians who have actually died for their faith profess to believe.


runecWhile likewise speaking on behalf of all Christians which you do not have the authority to do.


Only quoting Jesus who does. Who plainly says, “If anyone would come after Me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me." --Matt 1624

I'm only repeating the words of actual martyrs and saints who speak better about this.


runec If your god is so important to you that you are willing to accept death over mere worlds. Or worse yet, believe that god would want you to do so despite the suffering such a decision would entail for you and everyone in your life. Then fine, have at it. Personally, it strikes me as stupid, possibly selfish and shows a lower opinion of a higher power than a greater one.


I don't think you understand Christianity. How do you even think of it as being a religion that has lasted for 2000 years? It is also a contradiction to claim dying for someone is selfishness. That's like saying white is black and up is down.


But, using your belief as a universal truth is not an argument and it's certainly not the universal belief of all Christians. It is, as I said, drifting uncomfortably close to the sort of ideology currently threatening your life.


You don't recognize the fundamental differences in many things. Are you sure you are qualified to be even asking about what is similar or different between religious beliefs?


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Posted 5/28/17
me, about to be murdered, "be gentle it's my first time."
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Posted 5/28/17

PeripheralVisionary wrote:

.. but you presume God is not a dick. Let us run with that, and ask if God would get mad if you did happen to renounce your faith to save your life, and who is the real dick here.

I believe a "loving" god will understand, but who knows?



Loving God?? He demanded child sacrifice.

Christianity is just slightly evolved from the Canaanite child sacrifice cults of Moloch.

Easter is a celebration of extreme child abuse.

WTF .... are all those church goers blind and stupid not to see this???

Why we are and what we are is way more wonderful than any fear and ego centered irrational explanation.
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Posted 5/28/17

FMB-24 wrote:

Don't say anything lol Also the original post is pretty disrespectful and insensitive to all muslims. Also you obviously mean and Christian people which is not the only religion because they have many that have many Gods and you basically dismissed muslim faith which is a religion.


This why not say if religious zealot has you at knife point
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Posted 5/29/17

Yonatan2 wrote:


PeripheralVisionary wrote:

.. but you presume God is not a dick. Let us run with that, and ask if God would get mad if you did happen to renounce your faith to save your life, and who is the real dick here.

I believe a "loving" god will understand, but who knows?



Loving God?? He demanded child sacrifice.

Christianity is just slightly evolved from the Canaanite child sacrifice cults of Moloch.

Easter is a celebration of extreme child abuse.

WTF .... are all those church goers blind and stupid not to see this???

Why we are and what we are is way more wonderful than any fear and ego centered irrational explanation.


I have to avoid stepping on toes, I see no reason to, really. I have kept my own ideas towards the Christian beliefs out as much as necessary.

I apologize if I offended you.
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Posted 5/29/17

wizzain wrote:

me, about to be murdered, "be gentle it's my first time."


and last
Canute 
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Posted 5/29/17

Yonatan2 wrote:

Loving God?? He demanded child sacrifice.

Christianity is just slightly evolved from the Canaanite child sacrifice cults of Moloch.

Easter is a celebration of extreme child abuse.

WTF .... are all those church goers blind and stupid not to see this???

Why we are and what we are is way more wonderful than any fear and ego centered irrational explanation.


By child sacrifice, I'm sure that you refer to the story of Abraham being called to sacrifice Isaac, which was merely a test. It was also a prelude to banning child sacrifice, and God becomes incensed many times over people practicing it during the Old Testament. The Canaanites who did so were wiped out, and that sin stands as part of the reason the God permitted the Hebrews to be conquered by the Assyrians and the Babylonians.

It's not Christianity, but Leftism which is a "slightly evolved...cult of Moloch." The Soviets brought abortion into the modern world in 1920. And, the right of a mother to murder their own child stands as the Left's most cherished right. Heck, Planned Parenthood has been caught selling body parts and cutting apart live babies to do it. They are still retain the support of Leftists everywhere.

I don't even know what you mean by Easter being child abuse. Are you referring to babies having water sprinkled on their heads in baptism? In what universe is that child abuse?

It sounds like you don't know a thing about Christianity, I suggest that you find some good books on the Faith. Your eternal welfare depends on it.

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Posted 5/29/17 , edited 5/29/17

Funny how people choose which part of the Bible to quote when. In the matter of denying your faith, so long as you reaffirm said faith at a later point, which you very well can do if you survive, which is the entire point, you are forgiven in the eyes of God. The conviction to hold a belief in your heart, even as you deny it with words, is very possible. People do it every day.

Christianity has lasted as a religion by piggy-backing off the work of others. That is coming from someone who was raised Christian and was taught the history of Christianity in its entirety from both a religious perspective and a historical one. (But really this has nothing to do with the debate at hand. Unless you are trying to say people dying for there faith somehow maintains it. There is a reason there was a decline of the Catholic Church after the Crusades: All the devout believers had died.)

The God that tells someone to die when they need not to is not a kind, nor righteous, nor benevolent deity.

Any pastor, preacher, or priest with any sense will tell you the same as I have. I know, because I remember asking several this question on different occasions. One was a Catholic Priest, another an Army Chaplain of a Protestant faith.
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Posted 5/29/17 , edited 5/29/17

Canute wrote:


Yonatan2 wrote:

Loving God?? He demanded child sacrifice.

Christianity is just slightly evolved from the Canaanite child sacrifice cults of Moloch.

Easter is a celebration of extreme child abuse.

WTF .... are all those church goers blind and stupid not to see this???

Why we are and what we are is way more wonderful than any fear and ego centered irrational explanation.


By child sacrifice, I'm sure that you refer to the story of Abraham being called to sacrifice Isaac, which was merely a test. It was also a prelude to banning child sacrifice, and God becomes incensed many times over people practicing it during the Old Testament. The Canaanites who did so were wiped out, and that sin stands as part of the reason the God permitted the Hebrews to be conquered by the Assyrians and the Babylonians.

It's not Christianity, but Leftism which is a "slightly evolved...cult of Moloch." The Soviets brought abortion into the modern world in 1920. And, the right of a mother to murder their own child stands as the Left's most cherished right. Heck, Planned Parenthood has been caught selling body parts and cutting apart live babies to do it. They are still retain the support of Leftists everywhere.

I don't even know what you mean by Easter being child abuse. Are you referring to babies having water sprinkled on their heads in baptism? In what universe is that child abuse?

It sounds like you don't know a thing about Christianity, I suggest that you find some good books on the Faith. Your eternal welfare depends on it.



First part, yes, that is true.

Fine line, you're drawing there. Are you prepared to say when a person is actually alive in the womb? A very small portion of Planned Parenthood clinics were found selling body parts, to vilify all of them for it is rather generalizing. I would like to take this time to say I do not support wholeheartedly support abortion, but I also don't believe that abortion is always wrong.

No, he is referring to Jesus being sacrificed by his Father, and is calling it child abuse. It is meant as a joke. Actually I'm pretty sure most of the post you responded to was meant as a joke and its even funnier because of how you overreacted to it.
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Posted 5/29/17 , edited 5/29/17

Canute wrote:
Heck, Planned Parenthood has been caught selling body parts and cutting apart live babies to do it. They are still retain the support of Leftists everywhere.



Rasmend wrote:
A very small portion of Planned Parenthood clinics were found selling body parts, to vilify all of them for it is rather generalizing.


No, they weren't. After 13 separate state investigations and a congressional inquiry there was no evidence of wrong doing or illegal activity within PP. On the other hand, the two shitheads responsible for that entire scandal are currently facing 15 felonies. -.-

Carry on.
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Posted 5/29/17
The Temple of the Flying Boar.
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