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Post Reply Human Equality
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Posted 5/29/17

CrownedSonofFire wrote:


Shuai-Fi wrote:


CrownedSonofFire wrote:

Pretty simple really.

If we are all truly equal, then all the double standards wouldn't exist.

Until all the double standards are dealt with and destroyed there will be no true equality.

Most of you reading this probably figure I am referring to wage gaps, glass ceilings and what not...

If you are, I feel so sorry for you.

It's ideal state? No one will give a fuck if I smack you around for being a little bitch. And ideally, they won't give a fuck if you smack me around for being a giant cunt.
_____________________________________________

I would add to my previous comment but people might be reading and commenting already so here is a fresh comment instead.

Furthermore from what I last said about smacking each other around.

If you can say what you want about me, I can say what I want about you. If you think you can treat me a certain way, it is only fair I treat you the same way back.

So on and so forth. That is real equality.


Are you saying you don't think the existance of "wage gaps, glass ceilings and what not" is undesirable in a society with an "ideal state" of equality?

In which way is the lack of any of the aforementioned concepts contradictory to your own description of "It's ideal state"?


Look. I am not going to say that the wage gap doesn't exist in some places around the world. I would be stupid to,

BUT, I know what the females at my work make, and it's the exact same the males of their same job description make. I DO make more than all of them, but that's because of what I do as a job and due to the duties I perform I make more.

My beef with it is that some people take that kind of situation and blow it way out of context to make it sound like the women are being paid unfairly.

They are not. At least at my job they are not. If anything they are making more than they should due to the fact that some of the older women (not all, younger generation is better for not being lazy....)... refuse to do the full job entitled to their pay rate, and they leave the excess work to the rest of the crew including the younger women mentioned in brackets.

So, from my experience in the work force, there is no wage gap. At least at my job. Or rather jobs, seeing as how everyone was very vocal about who made what at each and every job I have ever had.

Maybe it's a problem where you live, but it definitely isn't where I live, or at least have worked. Granted I could be the exception, but with so many similar experiences at each and every workplace I have been at... I kind of doubt it quite frankly. From what I have been told of from other workers at other jobs, both male and female... It definitely isn't just me experiencing this reality/truth/whatever you want to call it.

As for Glass ceilings... I see more glass cellars quite frankly. Again, my work experience. The older women at my work were all offered my higher paying job before I took the position. They all had the ability to get paid a good $5/hour more than their normal pay rate. But they didn't want to have to work a night shift, or have to work with sulphuric acid, or have to work on their own from time to time depending on if the other night crew was in or not. Shit, the hardest thing about this job was getting the 5th class certificate for power engineering. And that was paid for by the boss. (It was easy by the way.)

They had the choice to make better money, but they denied themselves that opportunity. Yet those same women will sit there in the coffee room when not working and complain about crap like glass ceilings existing at our work place...

SO yeah, sorry if I offend you with not really having much of a care about these things. They might be real problems in other places, but so far as I have seen it in Canada, it's not a problem here.

I would dare say it's a lot less of a problem than people try to make it sound like... cause you know, people who complain about their situations have a tendency to over exaggerate things... It's kind of a normal thing we humans do.

But you will probably get angry at me for saying things that don't fit your likely agenda.

If so, I don't really give two rat's asses what you have to say.

If not, and you are the more reasonable type who listens to honesty for what it is and doesn't call it something it isn't, then I'm all ears for what you have to say.

Simple as that.



Keep in mind this is all from YOUR experience, and in cases like these, you need to take in MULTIPLE experiences, for example some women may earn the same, others really don't, we're in a time where women still have to choose between family and careers because women are still heavily considered to have the nurturing role. This fact alone prevents women from earning as much, many people argue "but women do more part-time jobs than men" this is because of motherhood and not having the time for a full job and still needing to support a family.

But as far as equality goes it's different for everyone, there's a different agenda like you said.
Personally mine is:

Race/ ethnicity
LGBT
Sexism

And this is purely from a western standpoint, which of course expected off a western site like this.
Posted 5/29/17


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In an equal and fair society everyone should be treated the same and be guaranteed health
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Posted 6/2/17 , edited 6/2/17

phinalfantasy wrote:


CrownedSonofFire wrote:


Shuai-Fi wrote:


CrownedSonofFire wrote:

Pretty simple really.

If we are all truly equal, then all the double standards wouldn't exist.

Until all the double standards are dealt with and destroyed there will be no true equality.

Most of you reading this probably figure I am referring to wage gaps, glass ceilings and what not...

If you are, I feel so sorry for you.

It's ideal state? No one will give a fuck if I smack you around for being a little bitch. And ideally, they won't give a fuck if you smack me around for being a giant cunt.
_____________________________________________

I would add to my previous comment but people might be reading and commenting already so here is a fresh comment instead.

Furthermore from what I last said about smacking each other around.

If you can say what you want about me, I can say what I want about you. If you think you can treat me a certain way, it is only fair I treat you the same way back.

So on and so forth. That is real equality.


Are you saying you don't think the existance of "wage gaps, glass ceilings and what not" is undesirable in a society with an "ideal state" of equality?

In which way is the lack of any of the aforementioned concepts contradictory to your own description of "It's ideal state"?


Look. I am not going to say that the wage gap doesn't exist in some places around the world. I would be stupid to,

BUT, I know what the females at my work make, and it's the exact same the males of their same job description make. I DO make more than all of them, but that's because of what I do as a job and due to the duties I perform I make more.

My beef with it is that some people take that kind of situation and blow it way out of context to make it sound like the women are being paid unfairly.

They are not. At least at my job they are not. If anything they are making more than they should due to the fact that some of the older women (not all, younger generation is better for not being lazy....)... refuse to do the full job entitled to their pay rate, and they leave the excess work to the rest of the crew including the younger women mentioned in brackets.

So, from my experience in the work force, there is no wage gap. At least at my job. Or rather jobs, seeing as how everyone was very vocal about who made what at each and every job I have ever had.

Maybe it's a problem where you live, but it definitely isn't where I live, or at least have worked. Granted I could be the exception, but with so many similar experiences at each and every workplace I have been at... I kind of doubt it quite frankly. From what I have been told of from other workers at other jobs, both male and female... It definitely isn't just me experiencing this reality/truth/whatever you want to call it.

As for Glass ceilings... I see more glass cellars quite frankly. Again, my work experience. The older women at my work were all offered my higher paying job before I took the position. They all had the ability to get paid a good $5/hour more than their normal pay rate. But they didn't want to have to work a night shift, or have to work with sulphuric acid, or have to work on their own from time to time depending on if the other night crew was in or not. Shit, the hardest thing about this job was getting the 5th class certificate for power engineering. And that was paid for by the boss. (It was easy by the way.)

They had the choice to make better money, but they denied themselves that opportunity. Yet those same women will sit there in the coffee room when not working and complain about crap like glass ceilings existing at our work place...

SO yeah, sorry if I offend you with not really having much of a care about these things. They might be real problems in other places, but so far as I have seen it in Canada, it's not a problem here.

I would dare say it's a lot less of a problem than people try to make it sound like... cause you know, people who complain about their situations have a tendency to over exaggerate things... It's kind of a normal thing we humans do.

But you will probably get angry at me for saying things that don't fit your likely agenda.

If so, I don't really give two rat's asses what you have to say.

If not, and you are the more reasonable type who listens to honesty for what it is and doesn't call it something it isn't, then I'm all ears for what you have to say.

Simple as that.



Keep in mind this is all from YOUR experience, and in cases like these, you need to take in MULTIPLE experiences, for example some women may earn the same, others really don't, we're in a time where women still have to choose between family and careers because women are still heavily considered to have the nurturing role. This fact alone prevents women from earning as much, many people argue "but women do more part-time jobs than men" this is because of motherhood and not having the time for a full job and still needing to support a family.

But as far as equality goes it's different for everyone, there's a different agenda like you said.
Personally mine is:

Race/ ethnicity
LGBT
Sexism

And this is purely from a western standpoint, which of course expected off a western site like this.


But the problem isn't about making the same amount quite frankly. In my opinion, the real problem is people who don't understand that their particular job might actually be worth less not because of their sex, but because the job itself gets paid less. That is not to say that I think you are wrong and that the wage gap doesn't exist at all.

I just think it's a lot more of column A than column B where A is my opinion and B is everyone else.

To paint it black and white for those who need it that way...

If lady makes 13$ an hour to clean tables and run the register while dude makes 14$ an hour or shit, let's give him 15$ an hour to cook the food and clean the kitchen at the end of the shift... how is that not fair?

Both are doing different amounts of work. Lady isn't required to help with the kitchen and only has to wipe tables and run the registers which includes dealing with the customer. Easily a job worth of 13$ to 15$ an hour, but her bosses see that position as a 13$ an hour position, even if Dude works it. Both Lady and Dude agree that Lady should get 15$

BUT the same applies to the cooks position. The bosses see that as a 15$ an hour job even though Dude probably would like 17$ since it would be fairer to his actual job considering that Dude does maybe 3x as much work as Lady and Lady knows it.

In no conceivable circumstance are they going to get the same wage because so long as Lady makes a certain amount, Dude will want to be fairly raised above Lady NOT because of her sex, but because the job she does is easier than the job he does. His job is worth more than hers.

If they switch jobs, her job would be worth more than his if roles were reversed and if the bosses aren't complete crooks are going to be paying her the exact same for doing that job to the exact same quality or better than Dude did.

Ultimately, the only kind of wage gap that matters is the kind where they both work the exact same job description and still somehow have a significant wage difference that isn't easily explained away by saying "Well he does his job better so he got a raise for it." Or vice versa if the same happens to her and she gets that raise instead of him.

If you can point out those kinds of wage gaps, I will call them out for what they are. Crap that needs to end.

But so long as anyone points out two people working completely different types of jobs even in the same company and they have the audacity to think that those people should be making the exact same amount regardless of experience, expertise or job description or work ethic... or .. or.. or... etc.

I will call them out for what they are all well. Barking up the wrong tree.

Case and point is my own co-workers. If they actually worked my job I would want to see them make the same I do.

But they don't. They work a different job, that relies on me doing my job. A job they could very well have had if they wanted to, but didn't, so they have lost all right to complain about the difference in wages in this case. The difference only exists for them because they work a job that gets paid less across the board. It doesn't matter who the fuck you are. You work that job, you make that much money, end of story.

That is my Column A. All those who think that those kinds of differences shouldn't be allowed need to get with the program.

We are all worth different amounts of money depending on our experience, capabilities and expertise.

I myself have training to work with animal food, high pressure vessels, acid, and what is considered close quarters working conditions. All of this requires some certification of some sort or another. For food I need to get my food safety even though its animal food because these animals become our food. Food chain is real and I have to get my safety to work in it. High pressure vessels was done through a power engineering course, which I need to legally work with the machinery I work with. Acid was the basic WHMIS course that everyone should be getting on a regular basis anyways. Close quarters is a course to train individuals how to operate in tight working conditions.

All of these were paid by the boss. All of these were made available for ALL the workers who have ever been given my job. Many of these were offered regardless just so that people had them for other jobs in the future.

There is no glass ceiling in my workplace. I argue that the glass ceiling is non existent in many workplaces.

Because like it or not people... some attitudes are universal with some people sadly... and one that I have found to be universal in Western society is this pervasive victim culture that women in the work force have as of late.

Sure, for some women it might be a very real thing. The wage gap and the glass ceiling.

But I doubt it is as big an issue as it is being made out to sound like.

Humans have a tendency to blow things way the fuck out of proportion to further their own goals. Anyone who thinks women aren't part of that problem are kidding themselves. Any guy can attest to the capabilities of their female cohorts when it comes to blowing shit way the fuck out of proportion.

So yeah, I am a bit of a doubtful david right now.

Quite frankly, the people who complain about the wage gap won't be happy until women make more than men universally without legitimate qualifications, and the glass ceiling won't be shattered in their eyes either until equally ridiculous goals are met, like making it so that only women are hired first for the best jobs and men get a second row seat in selection, only ever getting selected when there isn't a female to take on the job. Again, without qualifications or experience or expertise, because who the fuck needs any of that.

Oh, and if anyone think's I am being ridiculous with that last bit... I wish.

My stepfather works in one of the local mines. This mine is a global entity and has mines around the world. It does exactly what I just described as of late. They actually do exactly that. They have women running around in underground mines as safety crew for instance. Saftey crew is expected to act in emergencies. Emergencies like cave-ins where she might have to carry someone 3x her size for the length of a couple miles or longer in some cases through debris and stuff in general that will likely be in her way.

But yeah, equal opportunity is important.

If she were the same size as the guys or stronger, I wouldn't care about this as much. If they all were at least as strong as I am or stronger, I wouldn't care much really, as they should be able to handle the job safely...

But when you send women who have only as much physical strength as super model on a cheat day into dangerous work where their lives could very well depend on their capablity to not be weak...

Yeah, I have a problem with that.

When problems with wage gaps and glass ceilings are causing companies to do shit like that, I have a HUGE problem with the whole situation.

And from what I have seen thus far, the whole problem is just a bunch of people who don't understand facts.
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Posted 6/4/17
Where people are not judged for things beyond their control, and given equitable rights and value in the eyes of the law. A society's moral development is determined how it treats the weakest in their society, not nearly as much as how it rewards the strongest ("strength" in this case as defined as personal independence of oneself to thrive in modern society); away from the barbarism and appeal to nature fallacies of Social Darwinism.

Since we're going ideal, a society where talented and/or hard work is rewarded, but on the flip side as long as there are jobs to be had, working any sort of job for 40 hours of your week should secure you basic needs of survival (living wage, universal healthcare). I don't think we should strive to punish those without dreams or ambitions as long as they're doing *something* in their community.

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Posted 6/4/17
The problem with equality is that inequality is inherently apart of it. Where one gains, the other takes a loss. Two people can apply for a job, regardless of their chances being equal of getting it. Only one can get the position, and the other will not. On the surface equality sounds great, but if you look deeper you can see inequality will always exist within it.

So I agree with what others have pointed out. Perfect equality is unrealistic, and striving for such a thing is a waste of time. But creating a society where it is fair to everyone, is the ideal approach.
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Posted 6/5/17

Ryulightorb wrote:

In an equal and fair society everyone should be treated the same and be guaranteed health


No one is guaranteed health. The only guarantee there is that health will deteriorate and fail and the person will die. What I think you mean is that everyone would be guaranteed the time (and money) of someone else to attempt to restore their health or prevent, to a degree, the deterioration of their health. Also, you wouldn't want a society where everyone is treated the same. Such a society wouldn't have a social welfare program. People with disabilities would be much more disadvantaged under such a system as well.
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Posted 6/5/17

ishe5555 wrote:


Ryulightorb wrote:

In an equal and fair society everyone should be treated the same and be guaranteed health


No one is guaranteed health. The only guarantee there is that health will deteriorate and fail and the person will die. What I think you mean is that everyone would be guaranteed the time (and money) of someone else to attempt to restore their health or prevent, to a degree, the deterioration of their health. Also, you wouldn't want a society where everyone is treated the same. Such a society wouldn't have a social welfare program. People with disabilities would be much more disadvantaged under such a system as well.


I mean guaranteed health as in free healthcare available to all.
where I live health is a right By law in that sense
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Posted 6/5/17

Ryulightorb wrote:

I mean guaranteed health as in free healthcare available to all.
where I live health is a right By law in that sense


So, I was right. The guarantee of the time and money of someone else.
Humms 
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Posted 6/5/17
If there is a gun in hand, there can be no equality, only destruction.

A breakthrough for killING people.

It's true, we really havent evolved past the stone ages.

Equality is just a word like many, but the meaning is useless without change.

Kill religion, that's our first step, and stabilize civilization by having proper leaders who want the people to succeed and prosper.

But that's too hard to establish. Too much money loss, bad for business. A vicious circle that never ends. So good luck with that.
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Posted 6/5/17 , edited 6/5/17

Humms wrote:

Kill religion



That's.... a really bad idea. Especially considering secular societies and dogmatic atheists have been the biggest abusers of human rights in history. "But muh Inquizishun!" Yeah... 2000 people executed in 300 years. That's like a busy morning in the Third Reich's camps.

Also, the whole human equality and worth thing comes from religion: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, endowed with certain inalienable rights by their Creator".


stabilize civilization by having proper leaders who want the people to succeed and prosper.


That comes down to values. Atheism puts no value on human life. On the contrary, the logical, inevitable end of atheism is nihilism and sometimes hedonism. We're all worthless clumps of cells; machines for propagating DNA.
Humms 
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Posted 6/5/17

karatecowboy wrote:


Humms wrote:

Kill religion



That's.... a really bad idea. Especially considering secular societies and dogmatic atheists have been the biggest abusers of human rights in history. "But muh Inquizishun!" Yeah... 2000 people executed in 300 years. That's like a busy morning in the Third Reich's camps.

Also, the whole human equality and worth thing comes from religion: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, endowed with certain inalienable rights by their Creator".


stabilize civilization by having proper leaders who want the people to succeed and prosper.


That comes down to values. Atheism puts no value on human life. On the contrary, the logical, inevitable end of atheism is nihilism and sometimes hedonism. We're all worthless clumps of cells; machines for propagating DNA.


Religion is discipline of the mind. Once you have corrupted it the sea of trouble will soon follow, until the point no return. Don't act like nothing has ever happened because of it.

I am nothing, and everything, why do you mention Atheism? I have no interest in the disbelief, instead I welcome the idea, something about this omnipotent being; why not accept it? Maybe it can bring you good fortune and will, but I digress.

What's so bad about killing religion? People will defy until the end of time, is there really any use for it other than family? Being together.

It is not meant for hatred, and all I see is that very outcome. Love is within all of us, not judged by a God. People are just too stupid to realize that.

When will humanity ever learn? Fools indeed, to the very end.
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Posted 6/5/17

Humms wrote:



Religion is discipline of the mind. Once you have corrupted it the sea of trouble will soon follow, until the point no return. Don't act like nothing has ever happened because of it.

I am nothing, and everything, why do you mention Atheism? I have no interest in the disbelief, instead I welcome the idea, something about this omnipotent being; why not accept it? Maybe it can bring you good fortune and will, but I digress.

What's so bad about killing religion? People will defy until the end of time, is there really any use for it other than family? Being together.

It is not meant for hatred, and all I see is that very outcome. Love is within all of us, not judged by a God. People are just too stupid to realize that.

When will humanity ever learn? Fools indeed, to the very end.


Well said. Let us all achieve the Great Oneness. Ohmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
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Mein schwanz eine rakete jaja.
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