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Posted 6/7/17

karatecowboy wrote:
Don't be a smart aleck. I did:

"Many historians believed that Hitler and the Nazis intended to eradicate Christianity in Germany after winning victory in the war"

The end goal was atheism, with supreme allegiance to the state.


You really didn't. You jumped to the part you think supports your belief. You also seem to be confusing the removal of Christianity with being a statement of belief in atheism. That's not how it works. The Third Reich tried to absorb Christianity for years because it had political and social power. Hence things like Positive Christianity. Hitler himself was a devout Catholic growing up and was quite taken by the ceremony and ritual of it all. Elements he took forward into Nazism.

Trying to deny there was any religious influence on, components to or beliefs within Nazi Germany, Hitler or the people around him is ignoring years worth of history. Trying to do it so that you can make some absurd argument about atheism being the most historically dangerous is straight up willful ignorance.

Nothing is more dangerous than men who think their actions are justified by a higher power.





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Posted 6/7/17
I don't know which I find more ridiculous, arguments over Hitler's religious beliefs, or arguments over Obama's.
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Posted 6/7/17

karatecowboy wrote:


runec wrote:


karatecowboy wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Nazi_Germany

What history books are you reading? Common knowledge that their end game was abolishing religion and loyalty to God.


Might want to read your own link.


Don't be a smart aleck. I did:

"Many historians believed that Hitler and the Nazis intended to eradicate Christianity in Germany after winning victory in the war"

The end goal was atheism, with supreme allegiance to the state.


WOW many? Way to be vague.

Also an ideology espousing statelessness and helping the average person, was used to turn multiple countries into dictatorships and killed millions. Meanwhile loving Jesus didn't stop the atrocities of the colonial powers. Germany being mostly Christian didn't stop ww2 from happening. If you need belief in a god to keep you inline, it won't be enough.
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Posted 6/7/17

runec wrote:


karatecowboy wrote:
Don't be a smart aleck. I did:

"Many historians believed that Hitler and the Nazis intended to eradicate Christianity in Germany after winning victory in the war"

The end goal was atheism, with supreme allegiance to the state.


You really didn't. You jumped to the part you think supports your belief. You also seem to be confusing the removal of Christianity with being a statement of belief in atheism. That's not how it works. The Third Reich tried to absorb Christianity for years because it had political and social power. Hence things like Positive Christianity. Hitler himself was a devout Catholic growing up and was quite taken by the ceremony and ritual of it all. Elements he took forward into Nazism.

Trying to deny there was any religious influence on, components to or beliefs within Nazi Germany, Hitler or the people around him is ignoring years worth of history. Trying to do it so that you can make some absurd argument about atheism being the most historically dangerous is straight up willful ignorance.

Nothing is more dangerous than men who think their actions are justified by a higher power.







I read the whole thing. The historical consensus is that while the authoritarians were happy to exploit religion to acquire more power, their end game was atheism and eradication of the church.

There is one thing more dangerous than men who think their actions are justified by a higher power: men who think they don't have to justify their actions to a higher power. We see this in Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, Mao, Castro, etc: in absence of divine accountability then only might makes right.
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Posted 6/7/17

Jean104 wrote:



WOW many? Way to be vague.

Also an ideology espousing statelessness and helping the average person, was used to turn multiple countries into dictatorships and killed millions. Meanwhile loving Jesus didn't stop the atrocities of the colonial powers. Germany being mostly Christian didn't stop ww2 from happening. If you need belief in a god to keep you inline, it won't be enough.


You're not telling me anything new here. Satan and his legions believe in God. That's basic Christianity. The sin of Pride causes all sorts of problems.
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Posted 6/7/17
what kind of equal like religion or colors? this thread is very confusing to me why is everyone talking about different stuff?
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Posted 6/7/17

karatecowboy wrote:
I read the whole thing. The historical consensus is that while the authoritarians were happy to exploit religion to acquire more power, their end game was atheism and eradication of the church.


.....you really didn't. Or you're purposely blocking out the parts you don't like. The very line you're referencing says nothing of atheism. The article you're referencing straight up says there was no consensus of views within the Reich's leadership. Hell, there's even a link in the article to discrimination against atheists in Nazi Germany. And obviously Nazi Germany was not made up of atheists. Hitler even used atheism as a political enemy against Communism.

The rejection of your flavour of god in particular does not equal atheism.



karatecowboy wrote:
There is one thing more dangerous than men who think their actions are justified by a higher power: men who think they don't have to justify their actions to a higher power. We see this in Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, Mao, Castro, etc: in absence of divine accountability then only might makes right.


Not we, you. You see that. That's kind of the problem here.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc as it were.
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Posted 6/7/17

runec wrote:


karatecowboy wrote:
I read the whole thing. The historical consensus is that while the authoritarians were happy to exploit religion to acquire more power, their end game was atheism and eradication of the church.


.....you really didn't. Or you're purposely blocking out the parts you don't like. The very line you're referencing says nothing of atheism. The article you're referencing straight up says there was no consensus of views within the Reich's leadership. Hell, there's even a link in the article to discrimination against atheists in Nazi Germany. And obviously Nazi Germany was not made up of atheists. Hitler even used atheism as a political enemy against Communism.

The rejection of your flavour of god in particular does not equal atheism.



karatecowboy wrote:
There is one thing more dangerous than men who think their actions are justified by a higher power: men who think they don't have to justify their actions to a higher power. We see this in Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, Mao, Castro, etc: in absence of divine accountability then only might makes right.


Not we, you. You see that. That's kind of the problem here.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc as it were.


Yes, Hitler used atheism against the Communists, because, as the article says "Nazism was clearly willing to use the support of Christians who accepted its ideology ". And yes, there was, as the article said "some diversity" in the beliefs of Nazi leadership. But, as the article says: fundamental to fascism was the foundation of a purely materialistic "civic religion" that would "displace preceding structures of belief and relegate supernatural religion to a secondary role, or to none at all", and that "though there were specific examples of religious or would-be 'Christian fascists,' fascism presupposed a post-Christian, post-religious, secular, and immanent frame of reference."

And yes, it most certainly is "we", because philosophers and historians were saying what I said about socialism and it's offspring fascism long before I was even born. IIRC, even the ancient Greek philosophers drew the same conclusions: that a man unaccountable to any higher power is most dangerous and limited only by his own ambition and craftiness.

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Posted 6/7/17 , edited 6/7/17
The following statements are true.

Hitler was dedicated to the subordination of all religious institutions in the favor of his political power and party, as well as pseudo norse-occult ideology.

Hitler though an admirer of the institution of Catholicism was openly hostile to the beliefs and practice of Catholics.

He was excommunicated along with all the Nazi leaders in 1931, this excommunication was never lifted.

The Nazi regime strongly opposed "Godless Communism"

Nazi's were dedicated to a cult of personality and an enshrinement of whack mysticism of a pagan variety. Even the ideal of Positive Christianity amounted to the denial of the humanity of Jesus and a denial of the Trinity. It was such a poor mishmash of syncretistic "invention" that it wouldn't be called by many Christian Churches as Christian. Hence the suppression of other Christian denominations and Catholics among them. Most Christian Churches have an institutional authority to say who is and who is not a member and what their doctrine is. Nazi Germany was interested in suppressing and co-opting these organized religion structures because they were against the Nazi party.

It would be strange to declare that Nazi Germany as atheist since most of the population was not. Hitler was also against socialists and tended to lump all the atheists together with communists.


Edit: For further reading on this subject I recommend William L Shirer's authoritative work The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich
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