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Post Reply Can free college educations and basic living stipends ever truly be justified?
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Posted 6/9/17 , edited 9/26/17
When you think about free college educations, you think of a permanent student underclass who may or may not ever use any of the things that they are assumed to be learning.
When you think of a basic living stipend, you think of people who go from birth to grave never producing anything, only ever sucking on the pubic teat.
If you combine them, you have useless parasites who stay in school their whole lives and never become of use, only existing as a potential use.
Can this be justified? Does the possibility that some fraction of these people actually becoming purposeful excuse the portion who never do?
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Posted 6/9/17 , edited 9/26/17
"When you think about free college educations, you think of a permanent student underclass who may or may not ever use any of the things that they are assumed to be learning." only if it was poorly created.....an entrance test would should be required if that ever happened.

"When you think of a basic living stipend, you think of people who go from birth to grave never producing anything, only ever sucking on the pubic teat." This is a bad thing right now since people need to work to survive and help others but when we get to the point of full automation it will more and more likely become working is an optional thing (it will never go away fully im sure)


"If you combine them, you have useless parasites who stay in school their whole lives and never become of use, only existing as a potential use." Again entry test ...then kick them out if they don't succeed Universities/colleges kick people out all the time for not being on par.

"Can this be justified? Does the possibility that some fraction of these people actually becoming purposeful excuse the portion who never do?" Yes if they show promise and dedication otherwise they should be placed in job finding networks.
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Posted 6/9/17 , edited 6/10/17
I think America's attitude towards work is shit. You have some people working weeks at a time 12-hour days with no days off to make end's meat. I think shorter work days and more days off would help...

Wait...


"Pubic teat"....

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Posted 6/10/17 , edited 6/10/17
Well Played!
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Posted 6/10/17 , edited 9/26/17

gornotck wrote:

When you think about free college educations, you think of a permanent student underclass who may or may not ever use any of the things that they are assumed to be learning.
When you think of a basic living stipend, you think of people who go from birth to grave never producing anything, only ever sucking on the pubic teat.
If you combine them, you have useless parasites who stay in school their whole lives and never become of use, only existing as a potential use.
Can this be justified? Does the possibility that some fraction of these people actually becoming purposeful excuse the portion who never do?


Obviously, it can be justified. The military does all that just for the potential purpose of deploying.

Religion does it, too. It tithes people to provide church service and sanctuary.

But whatever, most Socialists seem to hate the military, religion, and discipline in general, so it seems to me that they aren't serious about making a working system and just want free stuff. We'd just end up having to execute them for refusing to deploy when ordered to.
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Posted 6/10/17 , edited 9/26/17
Free college? sure. We have free public education already. It's called K-12.

Basic living stipend is impossible. But I would like to see tax laws rewritten to handle current economic disparities and prepare for the automation problems forthcoming. Also, encoraging people to work at least a little less would be nice.
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Posted 6/10/17 , edited 9/26/17
Well, I applaud Tennessee (community college) and New York for providing free tuition for it's residents to attend college. People are actually given the opportunity further their education and attain the skills needed to compete in today's workforce without being saddled with crippling debt. At the very least, if you screwed up and went into a field that had grim employment possibilities at least you aren't burdened with $20-$40k for student loan debt and trying to pay if off with a minimum wage job. You have people who are paying off student loans well past retirement age and their SS checks are being garnished to pay a loan from 30 years ago. No need for the country to kill off it's elderly population.

New York's stipulation seems to be very fair:

You have to be a legal resident.
You must work within the state for the length of the time you had your tuition covered or it will convert to a loan.

qwueri 
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Posted 6/10/17
I think it's important to note that free tuition to a college does not (necessarily) mean free room and board. Even if the tuition didn't have a time/grade/degree limit, a perpetual student would still need to work to eat.

A living stipend is an entirely separate matter. Given enough automation where low-skill jobs are in scarcity (in relation to the population need for them), what are the alternatives? Abuse of current welfare systems and/or criminal activity. Most people want to live for more than scraping by on minimal bills, eating basic food, and never having enough for luxuries like a pool, nice car, vacation, etc. Sure, you'd have some people that might be content to live in mediocrity and certain crappy jobs that have trouble getting filled. But I don't think it would lead to societal collapse. Assuming economic and political stability, of course.
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Posted 6/10/17
Maybe if our economy didn't suck to the point where normal people could work normal hours and still afford basic living expenses then college would not be so necessary. But hey lets offer free college, pay MORE tax dollars to pay for it and then screw the economy even more so that now if you don't have a college education you can't work. AT ALL. Further destroying the economy and lives.
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Posted 6/10/17
It all depends on how you do it.

Fully free college wouldn't work. Lower cost or free with requirements (entrance tests, screening, and actually eventually graduating) might. I would also argue you need to restructure education as a whole a bit (not just college). That's a discussion for another time, but the basic is art degrees are fine if they also teach how to get a job with it. Teaching math and science right now sucks because calculus means jack shit outside of STEM (coming from a STEM major)

Another problem is payment and culture. In America, we don't like taxes, but we like the things taxes pay for. It's a bad cycle that would hinder any progress towards anything really.

As for living stipend, yes and no. I think it's the wrong way of doing things. I'm always for progress. A living community (a well maintained one, for the record) with resources to learn skills, get a job, and move on.
The biggest key is making the system to help people get off the system.


And then's there's the question of automation. What do we do when large amounts of people are unemployed not because they don't have some skill or don't want to work, but because they are unemployable?
That is also a discussion for another time, but worth mentioning.
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Posted 6/10/17 , edited 9/26/17
I live in Scotland and we have 4 years free higher education. You make a lot of assumptions that aren't really based on fact. The first point is that you still need good enough grades from high school to get in to a university. Even though it's free, there are still minimum standards. The second point is that University is as much about long term commitment as it is about knowledge. The skills you learn might not be entirely relevant to work but it lets employers know that you are COMMITTED to work. A doctor friend once told me that by the time they qualify to be junior doctors, half of what they learned is already out of date, they just don't know which half so they learn all of it. Third point is that jobs with degree requirements tend to pay at least 20% more than unqualified work. Higher wages = more taxes.

The point of something like Universal Basic Income is to replace ALL welfare. People on the poverty line already receive "Stipends" for food, housing, tax and childcare. The real gain here is removing the bureaucracy from keeping track of who gets what welfare. Everybody receives the same amount, totally automating welfare and taking administration costs out of it and if they earn more money then it all gets paid back as tax anyway.

There's also the fact that without having to worry about earning a liveable wage, a lot more people would do "Unpaid" work like volunteering, community service and social work. Work that is currently being done by GOVERNMENT employees (the ones that your taxes pay for). It has been suggested that a full time parent provides equivalent value of around £20k in childcare (Way above median wage in my particular area).
If you believe that giving impoverished people a chance to improve their lot in life will create "Useless Parasites" then that probably says more about your attitude to life than it does about the people who actually need welfare.
People always seem to forget that Government is supposed to work for the people and not the other way around.
Rohzek 
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Posted 6/10/17 , edited 6/10/17
Free college or close to free college is doable, but it should be provided on the basis that every public university fire their professional administrators and return control to the faculty. Whatever happens, something serious needs to be done about the cost of college.

As for basic income, the idea is definitely interesting. The idea is even floated in libertarian circles. My only concern is how it would affect the fluctuation of market prices. I can see $50 quickly becoming the new $20.
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Posted 6/10/17 , edited 6/10/17
Yes, I need to keep update in order to be one step ahead of Sherlock Holmes! Yes I'm James Moriarty!

15049 cr points
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Posted 6/10/17
Good, good. 66% is okay.

Though, seeing a lot of 'yes', but not a lot of 'why'. That makes this one hope for more. More!
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