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Post Reply Can free college educations and basic living stipends ever truly be justified?
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Posted 9/26/17 , edited 9/26/17
Probably the most ignored form of education here in the US is trade / vocational schools as a lot of people who are unprepared for college or would never graduate in the first place have been pushed into going to college instead of offering trade / vocational schooling instead. A lot of the positions in manufacturing (machine trades, welding and such), electrical, plumbing and a number of other well paying jobs go unfilled because few people are going into them and many currently in these fields are older and closer to retirement. I went through a vocational program during the last two years of high school and all I had to do was buy my equipment (mechanical drafting before computerized drafting was the norm).

If people want to go to college then the easiest way to get it paid for is getting an entry level gob for a company in the field they want to work in, most of them have tuition assistance or will pay for it completely so long as you keep your grades up but you have to work for the company for the same number of years it took to get your degree afterwards. There were a lot of people who got college degrees only to find out that they were worthless in the job market or that their degree never gave them the skills needed to actually do the job.
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Posted 9/26/17 , edited 9/26/17

Veladarius wrote:

Probably the most ignored form of education here in the US is trade / vocational schools as a lot of people who are unprepared for college or would never graduate in the first place have been pushed into going to college instead of offering trade / vocational schooling instead. A lot of the positions in manufacturing (machine trades, welding and such), electrical, plumbing and a number of other well paying jobs go unfilled because few people are going into them and many currently in these fields are older and closer to retirement. I went through a vocational program during the last two years of high school and all I had to do was buy my equipment (mechanical drafting before computerized drafting was the norm).

If people want to go to college then the easiest way to get it paid for is getting an entry level gob for a company in the field they want to work in, most of them have tuition assistance or will pay for it completely so long as you keep your grades up but you have to work for the company for the same number of years it took to get your degree afterwards. There were a lot of people who got college degrees only to find out that they were worthless in the job market or that their degree never gave them the skills needed to actually do the job.


Thanks for giving me a good lead into my thoughts.

So i do believe we could go into a lower to "free" cost of higher education. But i wouldn't do that as one would expect.

I would restructure the whole education system.
1-10ish grades would be like 1-12 currently functions.
The rest would be either going into vocational trading, or if with good enough grades you could opt into a higher degree path.

So for the average student, you would end up being trained into a vocational career path which is a consent need (paid by gov).
If you are above average, or gifted, or try really hard you can go onto a higher degree path. Doctor... and such.
Because you started a carrier path earlier, a 4 year degree would just a 2, as you already the first 2 (paid by gov) before.

My thoughts on this are based on my professional and work experience.
I listened to good talk once, that was discussing how the current grade school education is setup to train kids to go into a factory, (follow instructions, obey teacher = follow instructions, obey manager) . But that isn't the skill set that is valued into today's world.

My ideas aren't without examples, they are somewhat based on the UK education system.
https://www.internationalstudent.com/study_uk/education_system/

So to recap collage wouldn't be free, but you would be in a better position, and most people would get the "free" education they need.

For universal income, that would be hard.
It would be possible, but the whole planet would need to shift how we would handle and view money.

Think about the past, back before money we would trade items. (IE i need food, i have wood.
Ok i have wood, but need food lets trade...) That works, but has limitations.
So instead of actual items, people adapted to using money that has value in that you can trade it for actual items.
Over time that value changes, sometimes in favor of the money, but normally in the favor of the actual items.

Let me break down for everyone.
In the past i used to trade one rock for one log.
Someday i decided i wanted more rocks for a log.
So now i ask for two logs for every rock... lets say they do it.
OK so now i have valued rock and two logs,
Tell me did logs lose value or did rocks gain value? And how does this effect everyone that is dealing with the rock and log people?
If you had a lot of logs, how does this change what you can trade with?


Lets do this same concept.

Now still trade one rock for log, i sell them one rock for $2 and then they sell me one log for $2.
In the end we both end up with one item and $2 dollar. But wait its harder then that...What happens when we add tax in the item?
This wouldn't happen when we traded actual items, it could but would be hard. But now that we are using money so getting a cut is easy.

Ok same trade happens with $1 tax.
They start with $2 and 1 log, or rock

Now they sell
Rock person now has 1 log and $1 dollar
Log person now has 1 rock and $1 dollar.

People doing that tax now has $2 dollars.

In this example tell me did logs lose value or did rocks gain value?
How does the tax effect the situation, if the taxes increases or decrease what happens to the rock and log people?





Ok now the tax people are giving the trading people $1 every time they trade....

So this is the problem, money has a value that is set by everyone dealing with money.
Just giving everyone money how does this effect the rock and log person, how does this effect the tax people?

It seems to me lowering the tax would help the rock and log people.
But what if you don't have rock or log? How do you get the rock and log you need?
Do the tax people help you? How does this effect the rock and log people?
What if they are no rock and log people that started this whole process? What are we valuing money on?

This is a vary simplistic way of viewing the world, it has a lot more factors.

Hmmm
One way would be to split the money used to trade items and the money you used to buy items.
You can trade back and forth the money, at a rate fixed by the government.
The money you get from the government would be fixed.
While the money you get from trading would change over time.
I need to think about this...
Posted 9/26/17 , edited 9/26/17
Honestly, I'm losing the ability to care.

I was raised on welfare in the projects. I dropped out of highschool.

I make 40k a year now. Paying out the ass in taxes. People want a better life. You give them an opportunity, and they will try to make a better life.
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Posted 9/26/17 , edited 9/26/17
Right now young people have way to much collective student loan dept to feed into the economy. Either a lot of people need to just not go to college, or college needs to be made affordable. And taxes would be cheaper than all of this debt. But of course taxes are also literally Satan...

If hard work succeeds 5% of the time and the answer to any suggestion of unfairness is "you lazy bum", it will continue to only work 5% of the time. People who do win out in the end can point at their own experience as "proof" regardless of how likely it really is. In poker good luck won't let you win, but bad luck is more than capable of doing the opposite.

It's certainly possible to have a society where luck plays next to no part, and people really do have equality of opportunity. We're not there yet in no small part people keep crying "socialism" every time a suggestion is made.
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Posted 9/26/17 , edited 9/26/17
Do you really believe there are FREE stuff in this world ?




thread reminded me of xxxholic episode with the monkey paw episode

xxxHOLiC (SUB) - 8 - Contract
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fM7PlRmCW2Y
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Posted 9/26/17 , edited 9/26/17
Free college mostly benefits the academics with otherwise useless liberal arts and fine arts degrees. Larger campuses and more "free" students (many of whom are simply trying to extend their adolescence) mean hiring more of them.


The college degree itself is declining in value. Once, a person could get a good job that provided a comfortable life for one's family with only a high school diploma. It is still possible, but many jobs that once did not require a degree now do only because so many people have them.
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Posted 9/26/17 , edited 9/26/17
Can slave labor from workers and educators become an acceptable practice to ensure lazy fucks dont have to stop being lazy?
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Posted 9/26/17 , edited 9/27/17
Not until we get rid of the economic system. currency is a failed system that has failed over and over again.
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Posted 15 days ago , edited 14 days ago
Lmao. Just what the world needs.... more baristas with 4 year degrees
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Posted 15 days ago , edited 14 days ago
Spite what many might believe, higher education is not free in Scandinavia, only primary- and middle school is. And this system works just fine as it stands, because an estimate loan of $10,000 to $50,000 is not that much money when ones average wage is $60,000. I've yet to read a proper in-depth analysis explaining the economical complexities involving higher education being free or not. It makes sense that any system comes with pros and cons, and that the cons should always be followed by propositions as to how to solve those issues. Randomly screaming "I want free education!" or "Aaargh, you don't deserve it!" are not arguments.
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Posted 14 days ago , edited 14 days ago

bernardwheelerjr wrote:

Lmao. Just what the world needs.... more baristas with 4 year degrees


This was borne out of the backwards thinking that since a high percentage of middle class people have university degrees, then subsidizing more university degrees would necessarily lead to more middle class people.

My young cousin that went to a vocational school is so far ahead of his friends who are dumbtoiling away in college prep for nothin, its not even funny.

College has become the new high school, and the amount of administrative staff and exponential layouts have become the reason for the astronomical tuition.

I think to truly fix this, the whole method of teaching has to change. In maths, rote computation should not be hammered into kids heads from first grade onward, making them hate math. Kids should be able to learn calculus by the time they are 10, and "High school" should really be what "college" is today - a track to specialize on things like math and engineering related things. Kids should be pushed from a younger age in a more appropriate manner. This should be vocational for a larger percentage of kids than should be going to the college prep track where useful tech like math, engineering, physics, STATISTICS....are taught. Things like majoring in English or Gender Studies should not even be a thing.

If I ever had another kid, I would not let the school system poison his mind. (Not that the school system poisoned my son's mind, but hamper his progress, it absolutely did. Hyperintelligent hyperaware despite and not because of.)
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Posted 14 days ago , edited 13 days ago
Start more trade schools that is about all i'm going to say on this topic
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Posted 13 days ago , edited 13 days ago

May201m wrote:

Start more trade schools that is about all i'm going to say on this topic


Actually we have plenty of trade schools. I reccomend you follow Mike Rowe on face book and look into what he is doing with his "sweat promice". Most 4year cources offer a horrible return on investment these days. I was being a bit facetious above. Fact is we have millions of people with 4 year degrees who are working unskilled jobs. Meanwhile we have anywhere between 5 to 8 million skilled jobs open. These are tough jobs that require hard work but pay extreemly well.
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Posted 12 days ago , edited 12 days ago
Edit: Apologies. I hadn't noticed just how old the OP actually is. Regardless, I quoted you and offered my thoughts sincerely. Take them or leave them as you will.


gornotck wrote:

When you think about free college educations, you think of a permanent student underclass who may or may not ever use any of the things that they are assumed to be learning.


Rather, what comes to mind is an environment where education and training is freely available to those who would seek it for the sake of keeping a national economy globally competitive and thriving coupled with admission standards, performance and progression standards, and a cap on the number of programmes supported either simultaneously and/or in total per individual to keep the support system sustainable.


When you think of a basic living stipend, you think of people who go from birth to grave never producing anything, only ever sucking on the pubic teat.


Rather, I think of people that have become unemployed, perhaps through no fault of their own, who have the option to pass on job offers they're overqualified for in favour of more appropriate ones, freeing up entry level positions for less qualified individuals freshly coming into the job market.

I also think of populations who, having gotten the medical care they need to deal with mental health issues (particularly schizophrenia and substance abuse), gained the ability to routinely conduct basic hygiene, gotten the benefit of being secure from exposure and violent abuse, and having a permanent address to provide for needed services and opportunities, can get themselves back in order. As a bonus I think of the money saved on things like property damage from makeshift housing, emergency medical services, and lost property value.

I think of people working long hours at multiple jobs but barely making enough to sustain a living getting a bit of relief on their utility bills, grocery budgets, and rent so they actually have a chance to invest in themselves. I think of pregnant mothers receiving the necessary prenatal care and nutrition to ensure a healthy carrying and delivery, and I think of the long-term health of the children they give birth to. I think of people who've paid good money over the course of their careers into public pension funds who seek to reap enough rewards to enjoy their retirements in dignity. I think of people who have fallen victim to injury or illness that either severely restricts or permanently concludes their participation in the workforce, and particularly veterans of the armed services so troubled, being able to have a respectable lifestyle despite these challenges. As a bonus I also think of the sheer amount of money saved by having literally millions of peoples' worth of market power with which to bargain for better prices in healthcare and improved outcomes by measures I consider most important.

More broadly I think about the future of automation and its relationship with how economies are currently structured. I ask myself whether, if at some point we are able to carry out the bulk of production and distribution in some industry automatically, the capital goods involved with and the profits generated by those industries ought to remain in the hands of individuals or become publicly owned and shared. I ask myself whether individuals who are rendered economically obsolete before their careers are over but after they may be reasonably expected to make a transition to another by automation ought to be left to die, or whether they ought to be guaranteed a portion of the profits generated by advances they ultimately made possible by their contributions to their fields.


If you combine them, you have useless parasites who stay in school their whole lives and never become of use, only existing as a potential use.

Can this be justified? Does the possibility that some fraction of these people actually becoming purposeful excuse the portion who never do?


I think so for the reasons above, but also because fraud and abuse for such programmes are (while certainly present and worth addressing) far outstripped by the economic activity and opportunities they generate. I mean, you'll hear of the off bloke who used his food benefits to purchase steak and lobster, but more generally speaking benefits are often so low that recipients would essentially be blowing a month's worth of support on a couple of fancy meals.
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Posted 12 days ago , edited 12 days ago
Nope.
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I think you can easily get a higher education because you have the right to it, you also need to be able to write essays before you go to university, learn how to write essays you can at https://oceanessay.com/research-paper-writing-service/, I think it will be useful for students.
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