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Minimum wages can only be maintained through draconian inflation control
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Posted 6/16/17 , edited 6/16/17

cdarklock wrote:

From an economic perspective, all of these ideas are objectively terrible. R. Buckminster Fuller kind of nailed it when he observed that it only takes a tiny few people who are very good at what they do to support the entire population, so we should just chuck this entire bullshit idea that everyone needs to earn a living. If you're a shitty worker who's unreliable and not too bright, you should just stay home, because someone smart and capable is out there working and you should stay out of their way.

When you go look at cultures that have no meaningful economy because they don't have much sense of ownership in the first place, you find that pretty much everyone likes to be useful and will work rather than be idle... so long as you don't try to make them work. And American culture very much tries to make everyone work. We could just stop. I mean, anyone smart and capable who's doing something important wants to keep doing it.


I don't think basic income will ever be passed or see the light of day.

Even if you guarantee basic income, there's 2 problems, one of which you see with minimum wage already:

Guarantee a set level of money and then watch as inflation and cost of living skyrocket so that they are absorbed into "the cost of doing business" and you're back where you start.

People will bitch about freeloaders, even if it's only the bare minimum to survive that they are recieving. I agree everyone wants to work and be useful. Have them "earn" a basic income via minimum wage control and taxation to keep inflation at bay.
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Posted 6/16/17 , edited 6/16/17
The US spends about the same on its social welfare programs as any other developed country, however, its HOW those are being spent. If they are given to companies that are for profit, non regulated and part of the "free market" they literally gouge every penny they can. John Oliver did a segment about dialysis recently and its literally shocking. Will link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yw_nqzVfxFQ&t=1281s
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Posted 6/16/17 , edited 6/16/17

Ghostxi wrote:
Denmark is calling it "guaranteed income". It is where no matter what you do, you get a minimum level of income. Do away with minimum wage (or at least cut it down) and just have that instead./quote]

Comparing Denmark to the US is rather absurd. America has more illegal aliens than Denmark has citizens. Not only in quantity but in percentage.

Welfare should not be a career path.
runec 
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Posted 6/16/17 , edited 6/16/17
Universal basic income is going to become a necessity in the future whether any of you like it or not. The ongoing march of technology and automation is going to continue to simply eliminate jobs.

And as for UBI, think of the sheer amount of administrative costs, inefficiencies, pork, etc that can be eliminated when you have a single universal social welfare program. You no longer need to have welfare, disability, pensions, unemployment insurance, medicaid, etc etc etc and the corresponding bloated levels of departments and administration required to manage them all.

You have a single program that covers everyone and ensures no one is starving in the streets of the richest countries on the planet.

Nevermind the mental and physical health benefits when you removed the sustained stress of poverty from people. Even from a purely cynical perspective that's some cost savings right there.

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Posted 6/16/17 , edited 6/16/17

serifsansserif wrote:

I don't think basic income will ever be passed or see the light of day.


Ten years ago I didn't think gay marriage would ever be passed or see the light of day. Five years ago I didn't think Bruce Jenner would transition.

All kinds of things we don't expect happen a lot faster than we think. The only constant is change.


Guarantee a set level of money and then watch as inflation and cost of living skyrocket so that they are absorbed into "the cost of doing business" and you're back where you start.


Why doesn't this happen with jobs?

I mean, if a company moves into the area and opens a new factory, it guarantees a certain number of jobs. Then people get those jobs and make money. That money goes into the economy and you indeed do have inflation. But the inflation doesn't absorb all the new income and leave everyone back where they started; they're better off. When a new factory opens and gives people jobs, it's good for the community and the economy. It's not a zero sum situation where over time the factory may as well just never have opened.

If we guarantee a minimum income, yeah, there will be some inflation and cost of living will increase. But it's no different than deciding everyone in the country has just gotten a second job of "being a citizen" that has a salary. The economic impact is the same. So the idea that we'd end up making no progress simply doesn't make any sense.

It is, of course, worth asking how much progress we will make.


People will bitch


I can say with absolute certainty that this is going to happen no matter what. We have guaranteed transgender individuals the right to dress how they want, live how they want, have whatever kind of sex they want, get their hormones and surgery covered by insurance, the list goes on.

They are complaining about pronouns and bathrooms.

Neither of these are even real problems. They're just fears. And when you take away the real problems of a society, they start to be afraid of pointless bullshit like "what if they call me a girl?!" or "what if they don't let me use the toilet?!" like they're five fucking years old and tomorrow is the first day of big boy school.

So yeah, people will bitch. I just don't care.
Ejanss 
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Posted 6/16/17 , edited 6/16/17
...Yeah, but turning over the economies for DRAGONS to control?

They'd just grab up all the gold reserves into a big pile, and sleep on them!
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Posted 6/16/17 , edited 6/16/17
While the loss of jobs with an increase in minimum wage is an easy to measure problem, how do you measure and discuss the positive impacts on the percentage of the population who keeps their job with an increased wage?

According to the CBO, an increase in the federal minimum wage to $10.10 would result in 500,000 lost jobs, while about 16.5million people would see a direct increase in wages and some who are making over that wage would see an increase due to spillover effects. This raise in income would put 900,000 people over the poverty line.

While I agree that Universal Basic Income is a better solution, I feel like increasing the minimum wage would be a net positive if it resulted in the above outcome.

https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/113th-congress-2013-2014/reports/44995-MinimumWage_OneColumn.pdf
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Posted 6/16/17 , edited 6/16/17

runec wrote:

Universal basic income is going to become a necessity in the future whether any of you like it or not. The ongoing march of technology and automation is going to continue to simply eliminate jobs.


There's some debate on automation and the belief that it's either going to destroy all jobs as we know it, or that it's going to create millions and millions of jobs.

Personally, I see automation taking over the "easy" jobs. I think that fields of administration, data analysis, manufacturing, customer service, transportation, etc... basically the fields you see automation creeping into today. are the ones that are going to be eliminated. Sure, there may be a few jobs gained in software maintenance, checking, and development, but it's, laughably, all the jobs people DON'T want that are going to survive... (farming and ag, landscaping, cleaning and maintenance, etc... that will survive. Machinery is more powerful than humans but it's also incredibly fragile and subject to error or malfunction. (I also want to point out creative/artistic jobs will also never go away)

Despite all this, yes, I agree, securing a basic level of a standard of living will be an inevitable shift that we must make. There's no avoiding it. But even without machinery and automation, that's where we're heading. As well as needing to change our views on intellectual property (because, quite frankly, the ones raping the rest of us are the companies that can charge a "subscription fee" for basically information)


And as for UBI, think of the sheer amount of administrative costs, inefficiencies, pork, etc that can be eliminated when you have a single universal social welfare program. You no longer need to have welfare, disability, pensions, unemployment insurance, medicaid, etc etc etc and the corresponding bloated levels of departments and administration required to manage them all.

You have a single program that covers everyone and ensures no one is starving in the streets of the richest countries on the planet.

Nevermind the mental and physical health benefits when you removed the sustained stress of poverty from people. Even from a purely cynical perspective that's some cost savings right there.



Again, don't disagree. But it doesn't answer to people's desire to work, or as pointed out, "to be needed" and it doesn't assauge people's thoughts that someone is gaming the system (or how they might be able to "game" a system that doesn't really encourage getting ahead).

For that, capitalism must exist, however, if you look at what I'm saying, I'm not dictating WHAT jobs, or HOW MANY hours one must put in. All I want to do is squash the extremes and give people a system they are accustomed to that fullfills their needs. I want basically what basic income is about, but packaged in a different way.


cdarklock wrote:
Why doesn't this happen with jobs?

I mean, if a company moves into the area and opens a new factory, it guarantees a certain number of jobs. Then people get those jobs and make money. That money goes into the economy and you indeed do have inflation. But the inflation doesn't absorb all the new income and leave everyone back where they started; they're better off. When a new factory opens and gives people jobs, it's good for the community and the economy. It's not a zero sum situation where over time the factory may as well just never have opened.

If we guarantee a minimum income, yeah, there will be some inflation and cost of living will increase. But it's no different than deciding everyone in the country has just gotten a second job of "being a citizen" that has a salary. The economic impact is the same. So the idea that we'd end up making no progress simply doesn't make any sense.

It is, of course, worth asking how much progress we will make.


It kinda does though. Greater income leads to more disposable income which leads to a rise in the desirability of an area, which leads to higher costs of living. It's basically an equivalent to gentrification.

The added problem of basic income is WHERE that money comes from: the government.

People have big beef with the government giving out money to the "undesirables". I mean look at our pres. and who elected him. Look at how people reacted to "obamacare" and AT THE SAME TIME, how anyone over 45 seems to think THEIR social security and access to medicare/medicaid is their god given right and offering it to the poor and needy is stealing from them, and going to bankrupt the system, and grandma dying due to lack of care, etc. etc. etc.....

I'm not even touching on whether or not that would actually happen.. just the strength of those feelings and those beliefs. The "me and my own" mentality.. It'll never happen.

Secondarily, without changing the taxation codes, you better fucking BELIEVE companies will use all that they can to take that extra dollar or two from your pocket. Even if it's not those specific dollars, the money that you WOULD have spent on food or rent will be directed towards disposable income which in turn leads to inflation as each company tries to get more of your disposable income and yeah..

Fuck, even landlords, knowing you can spend AT LEAST X number of dollars on rent, will be god damned sure to make your rent higher than X dollars.... Unless you decide to house everyone via state housing... And then that's.... really communist and A FUCKTON of people will be upset with that.

Unless you do something to protect the general populace from that (which is what I was originally getting at anyhow), or make it undesirable to make money, people WILL do this.

Plus, a lot of the studies on UBI show that it's highly inefficient compared to traditional welfare and state medical care... Just not happening.



People will bitch


I can say with absolute certainty that this is going to happen no matter what. We have guaranteed transgender individuals the right to dress how they want, live how they want, have whatever kind of sex they want, get their hormones and surgery covered by insurance, the list goes on.

They are complaining about pronouns and bathrooms.

Neither of these are even real problems. They're just fears. And when you take away the real problems of a society, they start to be afraid of pointless bullshit like "what if they call me a girl?!" or "what if they don't let me use the toilet?!" like they're five fucking years old and tomorrow is the first day of big boy school.

So yeah, people will bitch. I just don't care.


Don't get me started on the bathrooms and pronouns thing. I may lean left, but I'm about economics, not bullshittery on both sides acting like complete fucking morons who don't grasp that people don't give that many shits about you, and quite frankly, will do what they want anyhow.

My "they'll bitch" comment is because if you want change, you have to get everyone on board, and sell your change positively for NEARLY EVERYBODY. Whereas you example just made everyone on both sides angry, I want a solution that makes everyone FEEL GOOD. because at the end of every day, we're not logical creatures, we're emotional ones. You're not going to get anything done without making people feel good about themselves.
runec 
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Posted 6/16/17 , edited 6/16/17

serifsansserif wrote:
Personally, I see automation taking over the "easy" jobs. I think that fields of administration, data analysis, manufacturing, customer service, transportation, etc... basically the fields you see automation creeping into today. are the ones that are going to be eliminated. Sure, there may be a few jobs gained in software maintenance, checking, and development, but it's, laughably, all the jobs people DON'T want that are going to survive... (farming and ag, landscaping, cleaning and maintenance, etc... that will survive. Machinery is more powerful than humans but it's also incredibly fragile and subject to error or malfunction. (I also want to point out creative/artistic jobs will also never go away)


Yes, automation will take over anything mechanical thats based on unchanging repetition / assembling. Customer service on the other hand I think will survive as people are largely resentful when their problem isn't handled by another actual person. I don't see that changing much as it would require people to devalue their problems and as someone who has worked with the general public for several years I can assure you that the bulk of our species grossly overvalues its problems. >.>






serifsansserif wrote:
For that, capitalism must exist, however, if you look at what I'm saying, I'm not dictating WHAT jobs, or HOW MANY hours one must put in. All I want to do is squash the extremes and give people a system they are accustomed to that fullfills their needs. I want basically what basic income is about, but packaged in a different way.


Well, I think it will be a shift from doing what you HAVE to do to doing what you WANT to do and human labour will continue to expand as an "Artisan" trade. There will always be things we want/prefer to have done by other people and there will always be products we can easily manufacture but have additional value when "handmade".

As for the "gaming the system" attitude. Honestly, that seems more prevalent in the states to the point of being cultural. Mainly thanks to the myth of the "welfare queen" that Saint Reagan introduced. And which his political descendants have continued to run with ever since.

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Posted 6/16/17 , edited 6/16/17

runec wrote:

Well, I think it will be a shift from doing what you HAVE to do to doing what you WANT to do and human labour will continue to expand as an "Artisan" trade. There will always be things we want/prefer to have done by other people and there will always be products we can easily manufacture but have additional value when "handmade".

As for the "gaming the system" attitude. Honestly, that seems more prevalent in the states to the point of being cultural. Mainly thanks to the myth of the "welfare queen" that Saint Reagan introduced. And which his political descendants have continued to run with ever since.



Ahhhh... a "foreigner"... yeah here in the states, it's a mindset that I, personally, wouldn't mind abolishing, but I'm not sure how to avoid it. And, unfortunately, the more international businesses take on or initially have the american mindset, the more it infects the rest of the world.

As for the artisan class, I WISH that it was the case, but to be honest, most people want to create, and not many people want to buy what, in their minds, is someone else's created crap. Only a select minuscule few succeed as creators... Plus... we'd better get damned good at recycling our crap, cause we honestly have a problem where we create far more than we need, and due to that, we also use waaaaaaayyyyyy too many resources. (and that's not a cash issue.)
runec 
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Posted 6/16/17 , edited 6/16/17

serifsansserif wrote:
Ahhhh... a "foreigner"... yeah here in the states, it's a mindset that I, personally, wouldn't mind abolishing, but I'm not sure how to avoid it. And, unfortunately, the more international businesses take on or initially have the american mindset, the more it infects the rest of the world.

As for the artisan class, I WISH that it was the case, but to be honest, most people want to create, and not many people want to buy what, in their minds, is someone else's created crap. Only a select minuscule few succeed as creators... Plus... we'd better get damned good at recycling our crap, cause we honestly have a problem where we create far more than we need, and due to that, we also use waaaaaaayyyyyy too many resources. (and that's not a cash issue.)


Well, to some degree the American style "<insert other group> is taking your <insert job or resource>" politics has spread, but in the wake of Trump it's beginning to experience a backlash too. As people witness the extreme in action.

Well, I don't mean creative artisan so much as trade artisan. Creative artisan is a tough one and that's unlikely to change. Trade artisan on the other hand. There will always be a market for luxury/artisan goods. People like things with a story behind them and "This was handmade by a dude who was a third generation master" is always going to beat "I found this at Walmart".

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Posted 6/16/17 , edited 6/16/17

runec wrote:

Well, to some degree the American style "<insert other group> is taking your <insert job or resource>" politics has spread, but in the wake of Trump it's beginning to experience a backlash too. As people witness the extreme in action.

Well, I don't mean creative artisan so much as trade artisan. Creative artisan is a tough one and that's unlikely to change. Trade artisan on the other hand. There will always be a market for luxury/artisan goods. People like things with a story behind them and "This was handmade by a dude who was a third generation master" is always going to beat "I found this at Walmart".



I agree with you on the first part, and HOPE we're moving past that, but I was referring more to the whole "capitalism cranked to 11"(or really well past 11 and nearly 42), thing we got going on.... And the unfair labor practices we are just fine with here and elsewhere because of it....(looking at you China and India).

As for the artisan story... Yeah... true... but if that were generally the case, why are there so many starving craftsmen yet Walmart has the wealth of a developed country's GDP? They like the idea of buying someone's story, but they don't want to pay what it's worth. They also don't really want to own that much stuff or have that be the case for the majority of their purchases.. And the more people hawking their wares, the less "special" that handmade trinket becomes. (been there, made stuff, done that. Known many others who have been there done it with varying degrees of success too).
runec 
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Posted 6/16/17 , edited 6/16/17

serifsansserif wrote:
I agree with you on the first part, and HOPE we're moving past that, but I was referring more to the whole "capitalism cranked to 11"(or really well past 11 and nearly 42), thing we got going on.... And the unfair labor practices we are just fine with here and elsewhere because of it....(looking at you China and India).


Well, it's not capitalism quite as much as corporatism at this point and corporatism is ultimately the bigger problem.



serifsansserif wrote:
As for the artisan story... Yeah... true... but if that were generally the case, why are there so many starving craftsmen yet Walmart has the wealth of a developed country's GDP? They like the idea of buying someone's story, but they don't want to pay what it's worth. They also don't really want to own that much stuff or have that be the case for the majority of their purchases.. And the more people hawking their wares, the less "special" that handmade trinket becomes. (been there, made stuff, done that. Known many others who have been there done it with varying degrees of success too).


Good ol' corporatism. As for the why, well, we know why with Walmart's business practices. There's a reason they leave a wake of destroyed businesses and suppliers in their wake and it doesn't have anything to do with product quality. However, to a degree it's America that allows them to do that. Other western countries have a lot of pesky regulations that interfere with the sort of crap American style capitalism is known for.

As for not paying the worth, that's kind of a cyclonic problem. People are poor, they want low prices, Walmart destroys companies and supplies to get said low prices, people at those companies and suppliers are now poor, they want low prices.

Walmart gets to where it is in US towns because it takes a scorched earth approach to the local economy until it's solely dependent on Walmart.


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Posted 6/16/17 , edited 6/17/17
UBI for a drug addict? Lazy person? That is not something I will allow ...get use to it. Minumum wages are unlikely to go, but they should as they are fundamentally unjust. The interference of the 3rd party (government) is unnecessary and economically harmful. "Starving in the streets" scare tactics are simply a lie. No entity (not even Wal-Mart) is as harmful to business as bad governmental policy and bureaucratic regulations.
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Posted 6/17/17 , edited 6/17/17
dang, this thread reminded me of that one hentai i saw
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