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Post Reply Otto Warmbier, student arrest in North Korea has passed away
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Posted 6/19/17 , edited 6/22/17
He was arrested for stealing a poster and tortured. They returned him last week in a coma and sadly he has passed away since.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/06/19/otto-warmbier-dead-trump-condemns-brutal-north-korea-regime.html

I'm a pacifist yadda yadda, but this time I'll make an exception. Mr. President, bring us Kim Jong Un's head on a plate. Would you please? Thanks.
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Posted 6/19/17 , edited 6/22/17
N Korea still has American held in hostage and even if they can't attack the US, they can still do massive damage to S Korea capital.
as much as i want an appropriate response, there isn't much US can realistically do.
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Posted 6/19/17 , edited 6/22/17
According to the autopsy, there were no signs of physical abuse, (or at least no obvious ones?). That said, they found no signs of botulism, which is what North Korea claimed he died of. Instead, the autopsy indicated he died from respiratory arrest, that is to say a lack of blood and oxygen in the brain. Needless to say, I'm quite curious about how that happened.
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Posted 6/19/17 , edited 6/22/17
supposedly, sleep deprivation can lead to permanent brain damage. maybe the unfortunate was forced to stay awake for longer than he could endure, and the lack of sleep literally caused his brain to break apart.
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Posted 6/19/17 , edited 6/22/17
Saw an article that tour groups are no longer taking US citizens to North Korea or something because of this.
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Posted 6/19/17 , edited 6/22/17
Yeah no sympathy to the kid. Sorry, but he willingly went to North Korea and knowingly stole some shit there. Yeah the punishment was extreme by our standards, but shit son, when you go to a foreign country you gotta play by THEIR rules, not yours. I place the blame on the kid, kinda stupid how many people these days pretend that personal responsibility doesn't exist when it supports their agenda/talking points.
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Posted 6/19/17 , edited 6/22/17

MadBovine wrote:

Yeah no sympathy to the kid. Sorry, but he willingly went to North Korea and knowingly stole some shit there. Yeah the punishment was extreme by our standards, but shit son, when you go to a foreign country you gotta play by THEIR rules, not yours. I place the blame on the kid, kinda stupid how many people these days pretend that personal responsibility doesn't exist when it supports their agenda/talking points.



North Korea Proves Your White Male Privilege Is Not Universal: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/la-sha/on-the-revocation-of-whit_b_9531122.html
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Posted 6/19/17 , edited 6/22/17
I don't for a second believe legality is a means to justify brutal retribution like this. Laws are just constructs of a governing power that are not the end all be all of morality, and can essentially be anything that the Kim wishes to be, and quite frankly, I do not subscribe to the notion of might makes right. Essentially, I'd like to differentiate between a political philosophy to how a government should govern and a personal philosophy about how individuals should act. The kid was stupid, but he doesn't deserve the North Korean treatment. The remedy shouldn't be worst than the illness I'd say.

Not quite sure of this case, but I just disagree with your reasoning MadBovine.
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Posted 6/19/17 , edited 6/22/17
From our standpoint, yes the kid was mistreated. At the same time though you can't just excuse him from being a moron. You wouldn't go meet Vladamir Putin, spit in his face, and not expect to end up dead in an alley a couple days later. I fully believe in Darwinism, and think the kid should get a Darwin award (For removing himself form the gene pool)

Yeah it sounds kinda harsh, but for FUCKS SAKE PEOPLE take responsibility for you actions that you have complete control over and stop excusing people that think they can do whatever they want.

No one forced him to go to North Korea. No one forced him to steal/deface government property in North Korea. He was clearly in the a state of mind that a lot of people on the internet are in these days, think 4Chan. Let's do stupid shit to get a reaction and think there are no consequences to our actions.

Sorry, but I have no sympathy for people that act against all common sense and then have bad things happen to them.

You seem to think I am trying to say I am pro-North Korean, I'm not. I'm anti-stupid.
mxdan 
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Posted 6/19/17 , edited 6/22/17
When it comes down to it most of us alive today have no idea what it is like to live in a completely authoritarian government. Was the kid being foolish, yes. But I'm positive he didn't understand the complete ramifications of what he was doing and just how easy it would be for them to find some sort of justification to do what they did (Which from what I understand was oxygen deprivation chambers / prolonged waterboarding). Which is why 'tourist' trips to North Korea is completely asinine. Not only are you on your own out there but you are also not likely to learn anything about the country or do anything (Of worth) besides give the North Koreans tourist money to do more awful things.

I mean even if you're a Journalist it's a little pointless. They only show you what they want to show you.
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Posted 6/19/17 , edited 6/22/17
It's tragic for a kid that young to be treated in such a way by the North Korean government. Sadly it just highlights the fact that Americans are putting their freedom and lives in the hands of a despotic government if they set foot on North Korean soil.
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Posted 6/20/17 , edited 6/20/17

MadBovine wrote:

From our standpoint, yes the kid was mistreated. At the same time though you can't just excuse him from being a moron. You wouldn't go meet Vladamir Putin, spit in his face, and not expect to end up dead in an alley a couple days later. I fully believe in Darwinism, and think the kid should get a Darwin award (For removing himself form the gene pool)

Yeah it sounds kinda harsh, but for FUCKS SAKE PEOPLE take responsibility for you actions that you have complete control over and stop excusing people that think they can do whatever they want.

No one forced him to go to North Korea. No one forced him to steal/deface government property in North Korea. He was clearly in the a state of mind that a lot of people on the internet are in these days, think 4Chan. Let's do stupid shit to get a reaction and think there are no consequences to our actions.

Sorry, but I have no sympathy for people that act against all common sense and then have bad things happen to them.

You seem to think I am trying to say I am pro-North Korean, I'm not. I'm anti-stupid.


It seems you are veering towards a responsibility justifies any punishment, especially when North Koreans are already subjected to it on a daily basis, with the only difference being that he had to obey it while in the country versus a permanent citizen, alongside a belief in cultural relativism which I primarily addressed, with references to differing laws, hence your statement "From out view, yes, the kid was mistreated", which I felt you avoided the brunt of. I do not think the punishment should be torture as punitive punishment, nor do I believe that death is what he deserved, just "expected", which I feel are not equivalent in most cases, but I am not sure how to argue it correctly.

A violation of common sense does not justify a violation of human decency, but at this point, they've been running death camps for over 50 years.


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Posted 6/20/17 , edited 6/20/17

PeripheralVisionary wrote:



It seems you are veering towards a responsibility justifies any punishment, especially when North Koreans are already subjected to it on a daily basis, with the only difference being that he had to obey it while in the country versus a permanent citizen, alongside a belief in cultural relativism which I primarily addressed, with references to differing laws, hence your statement "From out view, yes, the kid was mistreated", which I felt you avoided the brunt of. I do not think the punishment should be torture as punitive punishment, nor do I believe that death is what he deserved, just "expected", which I feel are not equivalent in most cases, but I am not sure how to argue it correctly.

A violation of common sense does not justify a violation of human decency, but at this point, they've been running death camps for over 50 years.





I was always fascinated with the word humane, as if humans don't do bad stuff on purpose. If you were treated badly by another human isn't that humane? It gets to the very construct of what is 'good'? What is 'bad'? It's like defining art. Why? Actions can always be equivocated. Hell if it garners sympathy it can be even justified. I think a lot of that is just what is socially acceptable, and a lot of that is just where you happen to be. Are you like us? Are you different? Who do we think you are? Who do you think you are? I think sometimes it's not about 'good' or 'bad' sometimes it's about how much can I cram down your throat. Isn't that humane? There are people who don't care. How would you treat them? Would you treat them humanely?
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Posted 6/20/17 , edited 6/20/17

junkdubious wrote:


PeripheralVisionary wrote:



It seems you are veering towards a responsibility justifies any punishment, especially when North Koreans are already subjected to it on a daily basis, with the only difference being that he had to obey it while in the country versus a permanent citizen, alongside a belief in cultural relativism which I primarily addressed, with references to differing laws, hence your statement "From out view, yes, the kid was mistreated", which I felt you avoided the brunt of. I do not think the punishment should be torture as punitive punishment, nor do I believe that death is what he deserved, just "expected", which I feel are not equivalent in most cases, but I am not sure how to argue it correctly.

A violation of common sense does not justify a violation of human decency, but at this point, they've been running death camps for over 50 years.





I was always fascinated with the word humane, as if humans don't do bad stuff on purpose. If you were treated badly by another human isn't that humane. It gets to the very construct of what is 'good'? What is 'bad'? It's like defining art. Why? Actions can always be equivocated. Hell if it garners sympathy it can be even justified. I think a lot of that is just what is socially acceptable, and a lot of that is just where you happen to be. Are you like us? Are you different? Who do we think you are? Who do you think you are? I think sometimes it's not about 'good' or 'bad' sometimes it's about how much can I cram down your throat. Isn't that humane? There are people who don't care. How would you treat them? Would you treat them humanely?


You are trying to discuss etymology and linguistic (Or something, Iunno) rather than the topic at hand, which is sort of a derailment, but while I have thought of the nature of the word, I can't say I really care as long as I use is in the correct definition, despite whatever social beliefs gone on to define this word.

It seems little different than nitpicking the word "mankind" on the notion that women are not acknowledged, and while it could be true in a historical context regarding said roles of women, it is more of a fun discussion for me, quite honestly.

That being said, I used the word "human" in the term "Human Decency", as I often apply such a standard to humans, perhaps because I feel that they do horrendous stuff intentionally, and more often can not avoid it somehow, not humane. In essence, I suppose I hold humans to a higher standard as beings usually not completely tied to instinct, but perhaps it is too high.

In any case, you are right, my statements here are not something I have supported in anything more than a merely stated trendy adages, but I've been holding off from blabbering on till I get a claim directly contrasting it, than what careful or careless inference I made of MadBovine's earlier statement that may very well be an unintentional strawman.

That being said, I acknowledges cultural differences exist, but I do not acknowledge that right and wrong should be defined by such, but rather what I believe it should be. Of course, I am still a growing human being, so I can't say for certain I am objectively right. Morals are subjective, but I feel this is where discussion comes in.
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Posted 6/20/17 , edited 6/20/17
Even if it isn't in the fashion which anyone wanted, at least he'd made it home.


gornotck wrote:

Saw an article that tour groups are no longer taking US citizens to North Korea or something because of this.

It's always baffled me that tour groups will take U.S. citizens into places like North Korea. It's a country that is actively hostile toward the U.S., and with a well-known record of periodically snatching foreigners to use as bargaining chips for flimsy or entirely fabricated reasons.

Of course, it also baffles me that there are people who want to go there. It's fine to have an appreciation for seeing the far corners of the world, but visiting certain places is like playing Russian roulette.

*Edit: Typo.
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