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Post Reply Otto Warmbier, student arrest in North Korea has passed away
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Posted 6/21/17 , edited 6/21/17

MysticGon wrote:


outontheop wrote:

As much as I hate to agree with tim, there is a massive logical flaw in comparing choosing to do something legal that has no direct causal link to a negative action (dress skimpy >> get raped?) with something that has a very clear causal link (get caught committing a crime >> receive prescribed punishment)


How is being tortured to death even a defensible position to take even if a person killed another person. The kid took a fucking banner. That "well it's their world so you have to play by their rules" shit is no excuse. Not one any reasonable person would accept. It's the same thing. Did a minor stupid thing. Like if a girl was publicly drunk, which could be a crime in some places. The rapists saying "I'll show her, I'll rape her to death" is wrong. Can't believe I have to explain this. North Korea is the rapist. Just because they think it's okay doesn't make it okay. They fucking know it too... trying to blame it on sleeping pills...


I didn't say it was just. I said that it was illogical to compare this case with a "she was asking for it" rape meme. In a rape, there is no direct causal link between the victim's clothing and the rapist's actions- the victim is minding their own business, regardless of how they have dressed, and the CAUSE of the rape is the rapist deciding to break the law. That is fundamentally different from someone deciding to break a codified law where there is a known response. Regardless of how unjust the punishment may have been, it was the direct result of Warmbier's act. Comparing it to a rape where the victim is just "minding their own business" is disingenous.

If you want to strawman me about things I never said, we can go down that road, and I will spend the next hour pointing out how stupid you are being.


XxDarkSasuxX wrote:


outontheop wrote:

-snip- something that has a very clear causal link (get caught committing a crime >> receive prescribed punishment)



XxDarkSasuxX wrote:

I don't think it takes a genius to realize torture is not an equivalent exchange of punishment for petit theft of the second degree.



See above.
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Posted 6/21/17

ishe5555 wrote:


XxDarkSasuxX wrote:


XxDarkSasuxX wrote:

I don't think it takes a genius to realize torture is not an equivalent exchange of punishment for petit theft of the second degree.



It is not petty theft, but direct aggressive action in opposition to the government. Would you describe fire-bombing a state building as minor vandalism, riling up a large mob for violent overthrow of the government as verbal assault, or pointing a gun at the president as a misdemeanor criminal threat?

xD what the fuck are you literally even going on about?

HE didn't even do that.


Stealing a propaganda poster in an oppressive, information controlled society like N Korea would be more akin to stealing the original declaration of independence from the National Archives in seriousness of the crime, which I'm sure you wouldn't describe as petty theft.

It.. It was a fucking poster xD.


I'm not saying it should be considered direct aggressive action in opposition to the government, and fortunately I don't live in a society where would be. But someone traveling to a society where it is should realize the implications of their actions.

Right. Let it be because that's how it's always been. Where have I heard that before?
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Posted 6/21/17
What the hell is going on here? What even is this argument?

Nobody is saying getting tortured to death is a justifiable punishment for stealing a poster.

They're saying you don't go to a place that's famous for torturing people to death over posters and then try to steal a poster.

The rights and privileges you enjoy in your home country only extend as far as its borders. Whether another country is morally right or wrong for not having the same rights and privileges is irrelevant to the fact your rights and privileges ended the moment you left your country. Going to a country without free speech then trying to say you have free speech in your country isn't going to save you from the punishment of exercising said speech in that country.


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Posted 6/21/17

XxDarkSasuxX wrote:

xD what the fuck are you literally even going on about?

HE didn't even do that.


I am saying that the crime he was charged with was "taking a hostile action against the state", and you are lowering it to petty theft. It isn't petty theft in N Korea. If he had stolen a non-propaganda poster it may have been petty theft. But it was a sanctioned message by the government that he allegedly removed. It is a serious crime.


XxDarkSasuxX wrote:

It.. It was a fucking poster xD.


A "fucking poster" that was part of a government directed message in an oppressive, information controlled regime. The implication of the removal of a propaganda poster in such a government is that the person is taking action that says "Fuck you North Korea, I am not going to let you control the message."


XxDarkSasuxX wrote:

Right. Let it be because that's how it's always been. Where have I heard that before?


And what exactly do you expect to be done about it? It isn't our country. There are already numerous sanctions against the country. There are already dire warnings not to go into the country. The country is already well known for acting in this manner and is condemned by most countries in the world.
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Posted 6/21/17
I'm inclined to place a lot of the blame on the tour group. Ultimately it was his decision to go there, but they advertise it as some sort of awesome drunken party trip (that's completely safe). Read this article, it's kind of staggering how cavalier the people that run this so called adventure trip are.
https://apnews.com/bb7f026e872c49409ca2d4443d83e31b/Gung-ho-culture-at-tour-agency-Warmbier-used-on-N.Korea-trip
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Posted 6/21/17

rawratl wrote:

I'm inclined to place a lot of the blame on the tour group. Ultimately it was his decision to go there, but they advertise it as some sort of awesome drunken party trip (that's completely safe). Read this article, it's kind of staggering how cavalier the people that run this so called adventure trip are.
https://apnews.com/bb7f026e872c49409ca2d4443d83e31b/Gung-ho-culture-at-tour-agency-Warmbier-used-on-N.Korea-trip


Am I the only one who's confused that the US even allows its citizens to go to North Korea? I mean if they don't want them in Cuba I would think it would be obvious not to want them in the country that does this shit.
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Posted 6/21/17

octorockandroll wrote:


rawratl wrote:

I'm inclined to place a lot of the blame on the tour group. Ultimately it was his decision to go there, but they advertise it as some sort of awesome drunken party trip (that's completely safe). Read this article, it's kind of staggering how cavalier the people that run this so called adventure trip are.
https://apnews.com/bb7f026e872c49409ca2d4443d83e31b/Gung-ho-culture-at-tour-agency-Warmbier-used-on-N.Korea-trip


Am I the only one who's confused that the US even allows its citizens to go to North Korea? I mean if they don't want them in Cuba I would think it would be obvious not to want them in the country that does this shit.


Yeah I think that's pretty baffling too. I did see where several US senators have mentioned the possibility of banning NK travel, but I guess we are protecting people's right to get arrested and tortured in a third world dictatorship of their own choosing.
Posted 6/21/17 , edited 6/21/17
This topic so far off from opening just what?
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Posted 6/21/17
Holy fucking shit you are dense.


ishe5555 wrote:

I am saying that the crime he was charged with was "taking a hostile action against the state", and you are lowering it to petty theft. It isn't petty theft in N Korea.

No fucking shit. What I said was a roundabout way of calling them fucking ass backwards.


If he had stolen a non-propaganda poster it may have been petty theft.

It was petty theft.


But it was a sanctioned message by the government that he allegedly removed. It is a serious crime.

Yes. The crime of petty theft.

I'm sorry. I'm simply incapable of understanding how the fuck this is flying over your head.


A "fucking poster" that was part of a government directed message in an oppressive, information controlled regime. The implication of the removal of a propaganda poster in such a government is that the person is taking action that says "Fuck you North Korea, I am not going to let you control the message."

So? The appropriate response thereafter is torture. Okay cool. Since that's how you feel, I'm not going to try and change that. You are just ass backwards with them.


And what exactly do you expect to be done about it? It isn't our country. There are already numerous sanctions against the country. There are already dire warnings not to go into the country. The country is already well known for acting in this manner and is condemned by most countries in the world.

The very same thing I always do on a forum. Talk about it. Learn more about it. Spread the word about it. I'm definitely not going to sit here and echo the drones who are basically saying "Fuck him. He got what was coming to him."

Don't mistake my intention. I am not trying to offer a solution or contribution to world peace. I am here for myself, to improve upon my worldview. And to reprimand my fellow peers for having the same ass backward values that we're faced with in this article, sympathizing and apologizing for them because "that's just how it is there".

I don't follow regressive rhetoric.
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Posted 6/21/17
It should be required to read The Gulag Archipelago before you go into any Communist country.
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Posted 6/21/17 , edited 6/21/17
this is the supposed "proof" that Warmbier allegedly stole the poster
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzVGIAcLsf8
it was already pointed out the following:

1. the video is grainy and is not clear who is actually shown in the video, though the NK government claims it was Warmbier.
maybe he was the one in the video, or maybe it was a NK official doing this and then blaming Warmbier

2. the hall is well-lit, which is quite rare in N Korea. there was even a video of a hotel having problems with providing adequate lighting to their guests.

3. the guy in the video, whoever he (or even she) is, is not actually shown carrying the poster after taking it down

people are accusing Warmbier of petty theft - maybe it would be if he actually took the poster with him outside instead of just leaving it on the ground.

he didn't steal the poster. at most, and even this is debatable, he attempted to steal the poster.

it should also worth remembering that N Korea doesn't exactly conduct fair trials, so any "proof" given by the government should be taken with a grain of salt truck loaded with salt.


meanwhile, some reporters from the liberal media seem to be tone-death, calling Warmbier a "idiot frat boy" (Salon) and blamed his fate to his "white privilege" (Huffington Post)



Left-leaning website Salon has removed a controversial 2016 article criticizing Otto Warmbier, the 22-year-old American student who died after being imprisoned for 17 months in North Korea for attempting to take a sign.

In a statement on Tuesday, Executive Editor Andrew O'Hehir told Business Insider that the site chose to remove the article, titled "This might be America’s biggest idiot frat boy: Meet the UVa student who thought he could pull a prank in North Korea," noting the article was a write-up of a segment on the Nightly Show, a late night talk show that ran on Comedy Central from 2015 to 2016.
Salon removes article calling Otto Warmbier 'America's idiot fratboy'
- actual article by Salon was removed, but maybe it's saved in an archive or something




The kind of arrogance bred by that kind of conditioning is pathogenic, causing its host to develop a subconscious yet no less obnoxious perception that the rules do not apply to him, or at least that their application is negotiable.... The high of privilege told him that North Korea's history of making examples out of American citizens who dare challenge their rigid legal system in any way was no match for his alabaster American privilege.
La Sha, Huffington Post


before taking a 180 and calling his death "tragic"


The Warmbier family will likely never receive the justice they deserve. But I can only hope that in the months and years ahead, they find some peace. They should know that we Americans will not forget Otto Warmbier’s name, or his kind, young face, any time soon.
Jennifer Sabin, Contributor, Huffington Post


before people start complaining about this, not all the liberal media. washington post, as biased as they may be at times, didn't mock Warmbier afaik and were professional in how they reported the news.

edit: i'm pretty sure someone will quote me and either claim it's "just an opinion piece" or vigorously look for examples of a right-leaning news also mocking Warmbier instead of accepting that some reporters in liberal media were tone-death in his report about Warmbier.
edit 2: too late.
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Posted 6/21/17 , edited 6/21/17

namealreadytaken wrote:



meanwhile, some reporters from the liberal media blame his "white privilege"


The kind of arrogance bred by that kind of conditioning is pathogenic, causing its host to develop a subconscious yet no less obnoxious perception that the rules do not apply to him, or at least that their application is negotiable.... The high of privilege told him that North Korea's history of making examples out of American citizens who dare challenge their rigid legal system in any way was no match for his alabaster American privilege.
La Sha, Huffington Post


before taking a 180 and calling his death "tragic"


The Warmbier family will likely never receive the justice they deserve. But I can only hope that in the months and years ahead, they find some peace. They should know that we Americans will not forget Otto Warmbier’s name, or his kind, young face, any time soon.
Jennifer Sabin, Contributor, Huffington Post


before people start complaining about this, not all the liberal media. washington post, as biased as they may be at times, didn't mock Warmbier afaik and were professional in how they reported the news.


I don't really care to step into this weird argument you have going, I just want to point out that the two articles you posted from the huffpost are opinion pieces from two separate authors. I don't believe either represents the huffpost as a whole, and it certainly isn't a 180 since it's just two people with separate opinions. Now if you find the first author doing a 180 then you have a point.


Edit: I'm pretty sure you will edit your post 10 minutes after I said this to bitch about someone pointing out the obvious flaw in your argument from the future. Which apparently you realize was a dumb argument from the beginning, just chose to go with it anyway so could find some way to use this kids death to bitch and moan about the "libawal medias."
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Posted 6/21/17
One one hand, I pity his family and am concerned with the apparent torture. On the other hand, I condemn both the tour group and Otto's decision to willfully visit a dangerous country that is famously known for targeting Americans.
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Posted 6/21/17 , edited 6/21/17

rawratl wrote:

Edit: I'm pretty sure you will edit your post 10 minutes after I said this to bitch about someone pointing out the obvious flaw in your argument from the future. Which apparently you realize was a dumb argument from the beginning, just chose to go with it anyway so could find some way to use this kids death to bitch and moan about the "libawal medias."


is it really that hard to accept that some reporters in the liberal wing made horrible articles about Warmbier?
i was just pointing it out, not even trying to make a "left-leaning media sucks" argument. i even pointed out that WP did a decent job.

as obvious as this may be, making a post complaining about 2 liberal media doesn't mean i'm bashing the entire left-leaning media.

in other news, according to Hill (a slight right-leaning news), the father supposedly blamed the previous Obama administration for not doing enough to free his son.


The father of the American student recently released from North Korea appeared on Thursday to criticize the Obama administration for its handling of his son's imprisonment.
...
Fred Warmbier said when his son was first detained in North Korea, he was told by the previous administration to maintain a "low profile."
...
When asked whether he thinks the Obama administration should have been doing more to help his son, he said: "I think the results speak for themselves."
the hill

no-one other than the government officials know how the Obama administration handled his case (Warmbier was detained back in February of 2016 in the last year of Obama administration), but i'm sure they tried to do what was possible at the time. Warmbier wasn't the only one being held captive, so any negotiation with the North must be done with great care. the complaint made by the grieving father is understandable - he lost his son and believe the US government could have done more to save him.
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Posted 6/21/17

outontheop wrote:


MysticGon wrote:


outontheop wrote:

As much as I hate to agree with tim, there is a massive logical flaw in comparing choosing to do something legal that has no direct causal link to a negative action (dress skimpy >> get raped?) with something that has a very clear causal link (get caught committing a crime >> receive prescribed punishment)


How is being tortured to death even a defensible position to take even if a person killed another person. The kid took a fucking banner. That "well it's their world so you have to play by their rules" shit is no excuse. Not one any reasonable person would accept. It's the same thing. Did a minor stupid thing. Like if a girl was publicly drunk, which could be a crime in some places. The rapists saying "I'll show her, I'll rape her to death" is wrong. Can't believe I have to explain this. North Korea is the rapist. Just because they think it's okay doesn't make it okay. They fucking know it too... trying to blame it on sleeping pills...


I didn't say it was just. I said that it was illogical to compare this case with a "she was asking for it" rape meme. In a rape, there is no direct causal link between the victim's clothing and the rapist's actions- the victim is minding their own business, regardless of how they have dressed, and the CAUSE of the rape is the rapist deciding to break the law. That is fundamentally different from someone deciding to break a codified law where there is a known response. Regardless of how unjust the punishment may have been, it was the direct result of Warmbier's act. Comparing it to a rape where the victim is just "minding their own business" is disingenous.

If you want to strawman me about things I never said, we can go down that road, and I will spend the next hour pointing out how stupid you are being.


XxDarkSasuxX wrote:


outontheop wrote:

-snip- something that has a very clear causal link (get caught committing a crime >> receive prescribed punishment)



XxDarkSasuxX wrote:

I don't think it takes a genius to realize torture is not an equivalent exchange of punishment for petit theft of the second degree.



See above.


Young person does something stupid (get drunk, take a poster) in a risky location (club, North Korea) and loses their life due to the actions of another (rapist, torturer). The killer knows they fucked up so like how a rapist would hide the body North Korea tried to blame the death on something other than their actions.

What baffles me is when even North Korea knows they fucked up you somehow see it fit to blame the victim of torture, which is exactly the same as blaming a rape victim.
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