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Post Reply TAX -- The Necessary EVIL ??
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Posted 7/7/17 , edited 7/7/17

Silentveil wrote:


Kelgair wrote:


Silentveil wrote:


Kelgair wrote:

Do you think the Multi-millionaire from Nevada Harry Reid made his money from his government work as a Senator? Do you think he was beat up by an exercise machine?

Do you think Illinois raising taxes right now is because their politicians are on the up and up (I.e. Honest)?


Ryulightorb wrote:


gornotck wrote:

All taxation is by definition unnecessary and evil.


just like healthcare and education is evil!


Do you also believe that healthcare and education are the sole purview of the government?


Sighs, the reason for the raised taxes if I am reading that right ...is that they haven't had a freaking budget for 2 years now. That means, bills haven't been paid, and issues that should have been resolved have been allowed to dangle.

So, it seems the first thing that needs to be done is to find out what this increase in tax money is suppose to be going towards.

Then make sure it does that, because you are right, healthcare and education isn't just it. Though that lack of knowledge is what is the thorn in your side about these taxes. If it's going to the right cause, you wouldn't care, but if not...well that is the reason for this unrest.

They need to do a better job, getting the word out for what the money is for, because no one wants to give away free money.


Huh, I never thought I'd see a Democrat worrying about their budget! Well done sir. I agree with a lot of this post. ^^


What is the difference between a Democrat and a Republican? .....nothing.

WE both want whats best for our Country.

We just can't seem to agree on how to do it. Also, ma'am not sir ....not your fault, I generally don't bother to give out that information, but you seem pretty reasonable. People tend to treat me more seriously and without as much censorship when they make the assumption I am a he.


Huh, you didn't give a shit about Illinois did you? You were just using it for your own purposes...

That's fine, I'll agree we both want's best for our country. We just have quite the different vision for it.

Posted 7/7/17 , edited 7/7/17

dulun18 wrote:

Anyone here live in Illinois by any chance ? 32% increase for income tax was approved a few hours ago

TAX--we can talk for days about it

I guess they will just continue to throw money at it. This is like instead of cutting back on the allowances per year for spoiled/entitled brats for not being financially responsible with spending, you increase the money they will be getting instead!! Well, this is what you get when those spoiled/entitled brats can make laws to dig deeper in your pockets.


I wouldn't mind if my state imposed a 32% increase in income tax. The issue is that the State of Illinois is hitting the point of no return - their bonds are getting close to near junk rating (not even worth investing in). On the other hand, Illinois has been notorious for corruption in politics (both on federal and local levels). Various governors have been found guilty of corruption, stealing millions of dollars, and so on. At the end of the day, the people voted them in and this was the response they got from their elected individuals.


kata89 wrote:
Again, you are jumping to conclusions based on the nature of my statement. Let me additionally clear some things up for you, since you obviously have not studied classical liberalism, and the sect which came out of it: libertarianism.


To be fair, classic liberalism and libertarianism aren't so different enough to consider the latter a "sect" of the former. When it boils down to it, most of the progressives that don the label of "liberal" haven't much understanding of the history of the term. This is why I'd say that utilizing the term "classic liberalism/liberal" is more thought-provoking than, say, calling yourself a "libertarian". "Classic Liberal" focused on invoking that there's been a historical, long-standing, and intellectual thought behind its principles and philosophy - while "libertarianism" comes off, in the modern day, as has-been Republicans/Conservatives who felt disenfranchised by their former party (same goes with "liberal" and "progressives").


kata89 wrote:
Direct taxes are the ones most libertarians want to abolish. I.E. income tax. Literally TAKING what you earn.
Then there are indirect taxes. This is how the government would be primarily funded. That includes stuff like sales tax, trade tax, etc.


Most libertarians aren't quick to associate taxation to "stealing" (although, some would agree). It's more so that the threats of not following along with said taxation is aggressive (which violates the non-aggression principle that's been established from the earliest days of our history as a country, in various ways and interpretations). You seem to be more driven towards deontological libertarianism than the philosophy of libertarianism/classical liberalism by this statement.

I feel that your examples of direct/indirect taxes were a bit lacking. For those who aren't aware, direct taxes also focus around the owning of property. This would include:

- Car/Road Tax (generally, you will have to pay a specific "sales tax" on a new car purchase that doesn't fall under this classification - I'm speaking mostly in regards to having to pay for having ownership of a vehicle per year; as some states have this tax).
- Property tax (paying taxes on a physical property you own on an annual basis).
- Social Security Contributions (paying contributions to the social security plan without certainty that your contributions will yield you the same benefits when you reach the appropriate age)

Indirect taxes are taxes on goods and services. England/UK has "VAT" and America has "Sales Tax". The irony is that most politicians try to raise the indirect tax rates because there's less "notice" of it. You don't see indirect taxes on your pay stub or check. Most people won't turn a blind eye at paying an extra 1-2% in sales tax if it gets hiked as long as it's not obvious.

Unfortunately, indirect taxes wouldn't be enough to sustain a country as large as the United States of America at this point. It's just not mathematically sound. It would require an overall restructuring of the government, its priorities and assets, and overall "purpose". While I agree that the government does need to do this - I'm not very optimistic that it'll happen as long as we have a two-party system and a democratic republic as our governmental structure.


kata89 wrote:
Also I do not consent to tax when I "live here." What you are referring to is the social contract, my good sir.


Perhaps "contract" isn't the correct word to use in this context. However, we do abide by the Constitution of the United States, as citizens. The 16th Amendment grants Congress the power to collect taxes from income without regard to census or enumeration. Gotta love the "living document" of the United States.. or do we?
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Posted 7/7/17
Tax is not neccessary evil; tax is needed to fund public goods, manage shared resource, and punish anyone who incur external cost. The problems in tax is to keep a check of power and proper management to stop corruption. The increasingly interconnected society, especially from globalization, means that the culture of honor in Southern US is no longer practical as the autonomous action of one individual can affect many others besides the targeted criminal.
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Posted 7/7/17 , edited 7/7/17
Tax has a chequered history. Many times taxes have been raised solely for elites to fund their personal projects or even their lifestyle. There was once a hearth tax in the UK. You got taxed by the number of chimneys you had. That did raise funds because everyone needed fireplaces to keep warm in winter and even for cooking. In south African countries the European colonial powers decided to get money out of the locals with a hut tax since everyone needed accommodation that was sure way to get money out of people. They wanted the local economy to change from barter to a money economy. They even promised slaves that have been brought to the Caribbean their freedom if they fought as soldiers against rebellions of this tax. The soldiers were only free men as long as they fought.
The moment they got injured or sick they were back to being a slave.These days we think of it as part of community funds to benefit our own local states/countries which we all use. There is a constant shifting debate of whether it is all beneficial or not because of corruption.
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Posted 7/7/17

Kelgair wrote:


Silentveil wrote:


Kelgair wrote:


Silentveil wrote:


Kelgair wrote:

Do you think the Multi-millionaire from Nevada Harry Reid made his money from his government work as a Senator? Do you think he was beat up by an exercise machine?

Do you think Illinois raising taxes right now is because their politicians are on the up and up (I.e. Honest)?


Ryulightorb wrote:


gornotck wrote:

All taxation is by definition unnecessary and evil.


just like healthcare and education is evil!


Do you also believe that healthcare and education are the sole purview of the government?


Sighs, the reason for the raised taxes if I am reading that right ...is that they haven't had a freaking budget for 2 years now. That means, bills haven't been paid, and issues that should have been resolved have been allowed to dangle.

So, it seems the first thing that needs to be done is to find out what this increase in tax money is suppose to be going towards.

Then make sure it does that, because you are right, healthcare and education isn't just it. Though that lack of knowledge is what is the thorn in your side about these taxes. If it's going to the right cause, you wouldn't care, but if not...well that is the reason for this unrest.

They need to do a better job, getting the word out for what the money is for, because no one wants to give away free money.


Huh, I never thought I'd see a Democrat worrying about their budget! Well done sir. I agree with a lot of this post. ^^


What is the difference between a Democrat and a Republican? .....nothing.

WE both want whats best for our Country.

We just can't seem to agree on how to do it. Also, ma'am not sir ....not your fault, I generally don't bother to give out that information, but you seem pretty reasonable. People tend to treat me more seriously and without as much censorship when they make the assumption I am a he.


Huh, you didn't give a shit about Illinois did you? You were just using it for your own purposes...

That's fine, I'll agree we both want's best for our country. We just have quite the different vision for it.


Honestly of course not, because, I don't live there. I have no dog in that hunt, and no horse in that race. No matter which way this turns out ...it doesn't affect me. Just giving my opinion on how to deal with the conflict, or at least, to make the conflict more understandable.

As for my own purposes, laughs evilly, "how did you figure it out ...my overall plan to take over the world, by giving an opinion. My evil purpose of getting everyone to get along so I can mind control them all.."

Laughs loudly.

Alright, no way to trump that ending, Great job, a Republican that manages to bring an argument to a close in a way that no one can actually argue with it. Fantastic job!
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Posted 7/7/17

Kelgair wrote:

Do you think the Multi-millionaire from Nevada Harry Reid made his money from his government work as a Senator? Do you think he was beat up by an exercise machine?

Do you think Illinois raising taxes right now is because their politicians are on the up and up (I.e. Honest)?


Ryulightorb wrote:


gornotck wrote:

All taxation is by definition unnecessary and evil.


just like healthcare and education is evil!


Do you also believe that healthcare and education are the sole purview of the government?


Education and healthcare are an important thing any sensible government must provide
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Posted 7/7/17

kata89 wrote:


Ryulightorb wrote:

Well a philisophical argument has no real hold well in your case in reality so yeah.

Well, when discussing the nature of something, there isn't a better way to discuss it. When you get down to the dirty details; you're right. That's your problem though, you are jumping to conclusions based on a philosophical argument rather than a literal argument. -An argument I have had yet to make.



steal:take (another person's property) without permission or legal right

That's the key. Legality does not mean morality.



Without taxes you have chaos no roads no fore departments no police and no education (unless it's private and funded via people wanting to learn) every job a society needs to be filled would not only need to be voluntary but people would need to pay for their own gear fire stations buying their own trucks out of their own pocket to do the jobs they have.

I mean if you want an absolute hell be my guest but most sane people aren't going to want to live in your "dream society" if that's what it's like taxless :P.

Again, you are jumping to conclusions based on the nature of my statement. Let me additionally clear some things up for you, since you obviously have not studied classical liberalism, and the sect which came out of it: libertarianism.

There are two kinds of taxes:
-direct taxes
-indirect taxes

Now due to the nature of taxes in general, of course a taxless state is the most moral state, but very few libertarians would ever argue for that.
That's in the realm of anarcho-capitalism, but as someone who clearly doesn't respect the philosophical nature of politics, one would not know about such sects.

Direct taxes are the ones most libertarians want to abolish. I.E. income tax. Literally TAKING what you earn.
Then there are indirect taxes. This is how government would be primarily funded. That includes stuff like sales tax, trade tax, etc.

Now you might be saying: "Well, how do you fund our government with that? That wouldn't be able to support all of our programs!"
To that I say: "Very perceptive."

I have two links for you. The first is about political philosophy so you can kinda get a very brief crash course on it and maybe see it's importance:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_philosophy
http://www.lousywriter.com/how_to_write_better_with_punctuation.php




1. There's is speaking about it literally and objectively
2. Morality is subjective so you could say that I would say you are wrong.

3. Of course there are more then one form of taxing doesn't make either more of less wrong.
Income tax is fine and something that should stay we need the government to fund everything it does government here funds healthcare which is needed :)

4. I don't care about political philosophy I know what it is an the importance some people put on it I couldn't care less also my punctuation just deal with it I have suffered with English issues ever since I suffered from a seizure 10 years ago if 10 years of hard studying hasn't fixed it now one link ain't gonna do shit.

Your argument is still poor and relies on the philosophy that tax is morally wrong in which if you want to go by philosophy morals are subjective.

So we come back to the point if you don't like how taxing works where you live either be in the majority and change the system or leave.
Just don't go changing Australia we need our tax for universal healthcare and so many other needed services
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Posted 7/7/17

Silentveil wrote:


Kelgair wrote:


Silentveil wrote:


Kelgair wrote:


Silentveil wrote:


Kelgair wrote:

Do you think the Multi-millionaire from Nevada Harry Reid made his money from his government work as a Senator? Do you think he was beat up by an exercise machine?

Do you think Illinois raising taxes right now is because their politicians are on the up and up (I.e. Honest)?


Ryulightorb wrote:


gornotck wrote:

All taxation is by definition unnecessary and evil.


just like healthcare and education is evil!


Do you also believe that healthcare and education are the sole purview of the government?


Sighs, the reason for the raised taxes if I am reading that right ...is that they haven't had a freaking budget for 2 years now. That means, bills haven't been paid, and issues that should have been resolved have been allowed to dangle.

So, it seems the first thing that needs to be done is to find out what this increase in tax money is suppose to be going towards.

Then make sure it does that, because you are right, healthcare and education isn't just it. Though that lack of knowledge is what is the thorn in your side about these taxes. If it's going to the right cause, you wouldn't care, but if not...well that is the reason for this unrest.

They need to do a better job, getting the word out for what the money is for, because no one wants to give away free money.


Huh, I never thought I'd see a Democrat worrying about their budget! Well done sir. I agree with a lot of this post. ^^


What is the difference between a Democrat and a Republican? .....nothing.

WE both want whats best for our Country.

We just can't seem to agree on how to do it. Also, ma'am not sir ....not your fault, I generally don't bother to give out that information, but you seem pretty reasonable. People tend to treat me more seriously and without as much censorship when they make the assumption I am a he.


Huh, you didn't give a shit about Illinois did you? You were just using it for your own purposes...

That's fine, I'll agree we both want's best for our country. We just have quite the different vision for it.


Honestly of course not, because, I don't live there. I have no dog in that hunt, and no horse in that race. No matter which way this turns out ...it doesn't affect me. Just giving my opinion on how to deal with the conflict, or at least, to make the conflict more understandable.

As for my own purposes, laughs evilly, "how did you figure it out ...my overall plan to take over the world, by giving an opinion. My evil purpose of getting everyone to get along so I can mind control them all.."

Laughs loudly.

Alright, no way to trump that ending, Great job, a Republican that manages to bring an argument to a close in a way that no one can actually argue with it. Fantastic job!


A bit of honesty and a bit of humor.

10/10. Full marks!

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Posted 7/7/17

Ryulightorb wrote:


Kelgair wrote:

Do you think the Multi-millionaire from Nevada Harry Reid made his money from his government work as a Senator? Do you think he was beat up by an exercise machine?

Do you think Illinois raising taxes right now is because their politicians are on the up and up (I.e. Honest)?


Ryulightorb wrote:


gornotck wrote:

All taxation is by definition unnecessary and evil.


just like healthcare and education is evil!


Do you also believe that healthcare and education are the sole purview of the government?


Education and healthcare are an important thing any sensible government must provide


Teachers and Doctors are slaves eh? The government must provide them and damn what they want to do?
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Posted 7/7/17

Kelgair wrote:


Ryulightorb wrote:


Kelgair wrote:

Do you think the Multi-millionaire from Nevada Harry Reid made his money from his government work as a Senator? Do you think he was beat up by an exercise machine?

Do you think Illinois raising taxes right now is because their politicians are on the up and up (I.e. Honest)?


Ryulightorb wrote:


gornotck wrote:

All taxation is by definition unnecessary and evil.


just like healthcare and education is evil!


Do you also believe that healthcare and education are the sole purview of the government?


Education and healthcare are an important thing any sensible government must provide


Teachers and Doctors are slaves eh? The government must provide them and damn what they want to do?


No one said that you just jumped to that conclusion all those workers choose to work its just a goverments job to fund education and healthcare.

Talk about a leap of logic
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Posted 7/7/17

Ryulightorb wrote:


Kelgair wrote:


Ryulightorb wrote:


Kelgair wrote:

Do you think the Multi-millionaire from Nevada Harry Reid made his money from his government work as a Senator? Do you think he was beat up by an exercise machine?

Do you think Illinois raising taxes right now is because their politicians are on the up and up (I.e. Honest)?


Ryulightorb wrote:


gornotck wrote:

All taxation is by definition unnecessary and evil.


just like healthcare and education is evil!


Do you also believe that healthcare and education are the sole purview of the government?


Education and healthcare are an important thing any sensible government must provide


Teachers and Doctors are slaves eh? The government must provide them and damn what they want to do?


No one said that you just jumped to that conclusion all those workers choose to work its just a goverments job to fund education and healthcare.

Talk about a leap of logic


Ara? What must the government provide then? If they're not providing doctors and teachers, what must they provide?
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Posted 7/7/17 , edited 8/3/17
Another Tax thread half full of selfish people saying taxes are evil or stealing or other bullshit. You don't want to pay taxes then there's a country for you Somalia! Small centerilized government with next to no real power it's your Libertarian dream. "Taxes are evil theif" people are the most entitled people in our great country. You want all the benifits of being part of a 1st world Society but you don't want to pay for any of it.

Oh and Btw Taxes have been too low for the top percentile for a long time now. After the 07-08 crash even Reagen economic advistors the people behind trickle down admited any tax rate on the top percentile under 50% does not show any postive results. Every time they cut taxes on the top you pay for it ether with more fees, fines, and other creative taxes on the middle class and working poor. Reagen alone to avoid a mini recession his income tax cut started to cause raised taxes 11 times on the middle and working poor to shore up the economy. Tax cuts don't work anymore we have cut to the point that the rich are just stockpileing wealth. Only demand creates jobs.
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Posted 7/7/17

gornotck wrote:

All taxation is by definition unnecessary and evil.


Taxes are responsible for the internet and computers existing.

Although it's debatable whether either can be classified as a good or evil
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Posted 7/7/17

Kelgair wrote:


Ryulightorb wrote:


Kelgair wrote:


Ryulightorb wrote:


Kelgair wrote:

Do you think the Multi-millionaire from Nevada Harry Reid made his money from his government work as a Senator? Do you think he was beat up by an exercise machine?

Do you think Illinois raising taxes right now is because their politicians are on the up and up (I.e. Honest)?


Ryulightorb wrote:


gornotck wrote:

All taxation is by definition unnecessary and evil.


just like healthcare and education is evil!


Do you also believe that healthcare and education are the sole purview of the government?


Education and healthcare are an important thing any sensible government must provide


Teachers and Doctors are slaves eh? The government must provide them and damn what they want to do?


No one said that you just jumped to that conclusion all those workers choose to work its just a goverments job to fund education and healthcare.

Talk about a leap of logic


Ara? What must the government provide then? If they're not providing doctors and teachers, what must they provide?


Funding did i stutter?
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Posted 7/7/17

Ryulightorb wrote:


Kelgair wrote:


Ryulightorb wrote:


Kelgair wrote:


Ryulightorb wrote:


Kelgair wrote:

Do you think the Multi-millionaire from Nevada Harry Reid made his money from his government work as a Senator? Do you think he was beat up by an exercise machine?

Do you think Illinois raising taxes right now is because their politicians are on the up and up (I.e. Honest)?


Ryulightorb wrote:


gornotck wrote:

All taxation is by definition unnecessary and evil.


just like healthcare and education is evil!


Do you also believe that healthcare and education are the sole purview of the government?


Education and healthcare are an important thing any sensible government must provide


Teachers and Doctors are slaves eh? The government must provide them and damn what they want to do?


No one said that you just jumped to that conclusion all those workers choose to work its just a goverments job to fund education and healthcare.

Talk about a leap of logic


Ara? What must the government provide then? If they're not providing doctors and teachers, what must they provide?


Funding did i stutter?


Since you said "provide" yes, you stuttered quite a bit. XD
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