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Post Reply TAX -- The Necessary EVIL ??
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Posted 7/7/17

Kelgair wrote:


sundin13 wrote:


Kelgair wrote:

Meh, I've got a relative whose trained as a doctor for 10 years, I have a friend who is an EMT. Neither of these people were "provided' by the government.

You're trying to make what he was saying different. "Funding" =/= "Providing". Nothing was goddamn "semantic" with that last discussion.


You have an issue with the use of the word "providing" (even though the user specified that they were talking about "providing funds"). I'd say it's fundamentally semantic. Semantics is about the meaning in language. You decided to interpret the wording in a very rigid way without accounting for context. It very much feels like you were trying to invent a problem by getting all up in arms about a perfectly logical word choice.

But I have no stake in this discussion and Ryu doesn't really seem to care, so I really don't have any reason to continue it any longer.


No... no. I'm pretty sure I knew what they ment by provided by the government. And I'm pretty sure that I sitll haven't gotten a good answer yet.


"It is up to the government to ensure that systems of education and health care are available and functioning for the populace" is what I got out of it.
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Posted 7/7/17

sundin13 wrote:


Kelgair wrote:


sundin13 wrote:


Kelgair wrote:

Meh, I've got a relative whose trained as a doctor for 10 years, I have a friend who is an EMT. Neither of these people were "provided' by the government.

You're trying to make what he was saying different. "Funding" =/= "Providing". Nothing was goddamn "semantic" with that last discussion.


You have an issue with the use of the word "providing" (even though the user specified that they were talking about "providing funds"). I'd say it's fundamentally semantic. Semantics is about the meaning in language. You decided to interpret the wording in a very rigid way without accounting for context. It very much feels like you were trying to invent a problem by getting all up in arms about a perfectly logical word choice.

But I have no stake in this discussion and Ryu doesn't really seem to care, so I really don't have any reason to continue it any longer.


No... no. I'm pretty sure I knew what they ment by provided by the government. And I'm pretty sure that I sitll haven't gotten a good answer yet.


"It is up to the government to ensure that systems of education and health care are available and functioning for the populace" is what I got out of it.


It's up to the government to provide slaves. The government *must* provide after all. You happily link two professions that might not like being told what to do. XD
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Posted 7/7/17 , edited 7/7/17

Kelgair

It's up to the government to provide slaves. The government *must* provide after all. You happily link two professions that might not like being told what to do. XD


Yes, how dare the government tell teachers, "I will pay you to teach". Such oppression.
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Posted 7/7/17 , edited 7/7/17

Kelgair wrote:

Where the fuck do you live? I live in Indiana and I got hospital bills every time I or my roomates went to a hospital.


Australia :P
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Posted 7/7/17

sundin13 wrote:


Kelgair wrote:

Meh, I've got a relative whose trained as a doctor for 10 years, I have a friend who is an EMT. Neither of these people were "provided' by the government.

You're trying to make what he was saying different. "Funding" =/= "Providing". Nothing was goddamn "semantic" with that last discussion.


You have an issue with the use of the word "providing" (even though the user specified that they were talking about "providing funds"). I'd say it's fundamentally semantic. Semantics is about the meaning in language. You decided to interpret the wording in a very rigid way without accounting for context. It very much feels like you were trying to invent a problem by getting all up in arms about a perfectly logical word choice.

But I have no stake in this discussion and Ryu doesn't really seem to care, so I really don't have any reason to continue it any longer.


Thanks man for sticking up for me btw.
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Posted 7/7/17

Kelgair wrote:


sundin13 wrote:


Kelgair

It's up to the government to provide slaves. The government *must* provide after all. You happily link two professions that might not like being told what to do. XD


Yes, how dare the government tell teachers, "I will pay you to teach". Such oppression.


Local person is ok with government saying I'm ok with your religious teaching! In a religious setting.


What?


Ryulightorb wrote:

Thanks man for sticking up for me btw.


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Posted 7/7/17

sundin13 wrote:


Kelgair

It's up to the government to provide slaves. The government *must* provide after all. You happily link two professions that might not like being told what to do. XD


Yes, how dare the government tell teachers, "I will pay you to teach". Such oppression.


Good joke ^^
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Posted 7/7/17

sundin13 wrote:


Kelgair wrote:


sundin13 wrote:


Kelgair

It's up to the government to provide slaves. The government *must* provide after all. You happily link two professions that might not like being told what to do. XD


Yes, how dare the government tell teachers, "I will pay you to teach". Such oppression.


Local person is ok with government saying I'm ok with your religious teaching! In a religious setting.


What?


Ryulightorb wrote:

Thanks man for sticking up for me btw.




That was deleted, but I'll try not to be so hungry with my afterthoughts. XD
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Posted 7/7/17 , edited 7/7/17

Ryulightorb wrote:

Australia :P


I'm not surprised. Oh hey, can we just ignore ever... nooo. I probably can't

Fuck you.
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Posted 7/7/17 , edited 7/7/17

Kelgair wrote:

I'm not surprised. Oh hey, can we just ignore ever... nooo. I probably can't

Fuck you.


I was rude before. Do let me know how your recent gun amnesty has done. I'm sure all the criminals gave up their firearms!
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Posted 7/7/17 , edited 7/7/17
dulun18. I would like to correct you on this

TAX--we can talk for YEARS about it

Tax will affect so many things and there will those who will be for it and those who will be against it. The discussion can get ugly Trigger warnings is required for sure.

Federal tax
State tax
City tax
Community tax

Financial spending-- you will have to go into waste, fraud and abuse... it could get ugly

You hear about the shooting case of Castille ended with a 3 millions settlement for the family. Where do you think they will get the 3 million dollars from ?
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Posted 7/7/17
I am pretty sure he means that instead of taking responsibility and learning how to make the system work with what money they have, they just throw a fit like a child and say they need more money or it wont be fixed at all. Taxes are 100 percent needed and important, however they take way too much and waste billions and refuse to acknowledge its their fault or try to fix it like a spoiled kid.
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Posted 7/7/17 , edited 7/7/17

Kelgair wrote:


neotag wrote:

Another Tax thread half full of selfish people saying taxes are evil or stealing or other bullshit. You don't want to pay taxes then there's a country for you Somalia! Small centerilized government with next to no real power it's your Libertarian dream. "Taxes are evil theif" people are the most entitled people in our great country. You want all the benifits of being part of a 1st world Society but you don't want to pay for any of it.

Oh and Btw Taxes have been too low for the top percentile for a long time now. After the 07-08 crash even Reagen economic advistors the people behind trickle down admited any tax rate on the top percentile under 50% does not show any postive results. Every time they cut taxes on the top you pay for it ether with more fees, fines, and other creative taxes on the middle class and working poor. Reagen alone to avoid a mini recession his income tax cut started to cause raised taxes 11 times on the middle and working poor to shore up the economy. Tax cuts don't work anymore we have cut to the point that the rich are just stockpileing wealth. Only demand creates jobs.


>.> No one thinks Somalia is a good example. it's a common place people who are ignorant look too to prove both their bigotry and ignorance.

The following paragraph is so full of idiocy I don't know where to begin. Hell, it's the same shit I saw back in 2009. Update your talking points at least. The Somali one definitively isn't accurate today. XD



Somalia Is the libertarian dream. Small near powerless centerlized government, next to no taxes, guns everywhere, and domated by the powerful. You don't like the fact that it is a living real time example of The libertarian myth so you dismissed it. Just like you dismissed the history I wrote in the rest of the post. Regean created a mini recession with his income tax cut that's a fact, so is the fact that he raised taxes 11 times focus on the middle class and working poor to stop it. Reagen own economic advisors after the 07-08 crash in a moment of honesty admited trickle down never intented taxes to go lower then 50% and by there own math anything lower then 50% on the top bracket shows no postive returns. Fees, fines, and other taxes like sales, property, utility, and other that disaproportionately impacts the working poor and middle class has gone up not down over the years. The majority pays for tax cuts for the rich they don't pay for themselves as the GOP would like you to believe.
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Posted 7/7/17

Ryulightorb wrote:


kata89 wrote:

Actually you have yet to properly disable my argument since mine is a philosophical argument whereas you are arguing literally.

Also I do not consent to tax when I "live here." What you are referring to is the social contract, my good sir.

Which is also a very weak argument since the idea that by being born we sign into a contract is a pathetic excuse.


Well a philisophical argument has no real hold well in your case in reality so yeah.

steal:take (another person's property) without permission or legal right

By definition it's not stealing even philosophically so yeah no go.

Also yes but without that "contract" society would cease to function properly everyone would be selfish and public utilities would not exist we would go into a state where if you can't work you are fucked roads and other public utilities? would not exist no money to fund them people are too selfish to fund them by themselves.

Society would be a wreck without tax so even if it were stealing and literally by definition it isn't without taxes well...it would suck to live in such a country in so many freaking ways.

As said if you dislike it you can always get the funds to leave you are also born into a contract where you can't steal and kill and other things by law which is a contract on it's own.

but i guess that's pathetic also.



Without taxes you have chaos no roads no fore departments no police and no education (unless it's private and funded via people wanting to learn) every job a society needs to be filled would not only need to be voluntary but people would need to pay for their own gear fire stations buying their own trucks out of their own pocket to do the jobs they have.

I mean if you want an absolute hell be my guest but most sane people aren't going to want to live in your "dream society" if that's what it's like taxless :P.

but each to their own i guess \o/ i just want to live in a civilized society where people can live even if they aren't jobless and hit a rough spot can get education and we have people to solve crimes.


Why do you think the necessity of a social contract means everyone consents to it by virtue of being born? I certainly didn't consent to any social contract at any point in my life.

For that matter, why do you think that there would be a non-functioning society without taxation? Have you ever stopped to consider alternate forms of raising government revenue for even a minute? Just off the top of my head, the government can raise revenue by:
- renting government-owned land and/or natural resources (or selling it but eventually you run out)
- operating government run businesses
- invading other countries and forcing them to pay tribute
- granting letters of marque in exchange for receiving a cut of the seized goods
- saying "pretty please" and accepting donations from anyone who's feeling generous
- granting positions in the government bureaucracy in exchange for money

Most importantly, why do you think that utilities and healthcare would not exist without government because of selfishness? They totally would. I want money, I'm selfish. If the government were abolished tomorrow I could probably make a killing providing the services it no longer offers. Personal material gain would motivate me to fill the gap. Whether you'd be satisfied with the quality of the services I provide is another question...but just like the government needs you to keep voting, I'd need you to keep paying. Maybe.
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Posted 7/7/17 , edited 7/7/17

neotag wrote:


Kelgair wrote:


neotag wrote:

Another Tax thread half full of selfish people saying taxes are evil or stealing or other bullshit. You don't want to pay taxes then there's a country for you Somalia! Small centerilized government with next to no real power it's your Libertarian dream. "Taxes are evil theif" people are the most entitled people in our great country. You want all the benifits of being part of a 1st world Society but you don't want to pay for any of it.

Oh and Btw Taxes have been too low for the top percentile for a long time now. After the 07-08 crash even Reagen economic advistors the people behind trickle down admited any tax rate on the top percentile under 50% does not show any postive results. Every time they cut taxes on the top you pay for it ether with more fees, fines, and other creative taxes on the middle class and working poor. Reagen alone to avoid a mini recession his income tax cut started to cause raised taxes 11 times on the middle and working poor to shore up the economy. Tax cuts don't work anymore we have cut to the point that the rich are just stockpileing wealth. Only demand creates jobs.


>.> No one thinks Somalia is a good example. it's a common place people who are ignorant look too to prove both their bigotry and ignorance.

The following paragraph is so full of idiocy I don't know where to begin. Hell, it's the same shit I saw back in 2009. Update your talking points at least. The Somali one definitively isn't accurate today. XD



Somalia Is the libertarian dream. Small near powerless centerlized government, next to no taxes, guns everywhere, and domated by the powerful. You don't like the fact that it is a living real time example of The libertarian myth so you dismissed it. Just like you dismissed the history I wrote in the rest of the post. Regean created a mini recession with his income tax cut that's a fact, so is the fact that he raised taxes 11 times focus on the middle class and working poor to stop it. Reagen own economic advisors after the 07-08 crash in a moment of honesty admited trickle down never intented taxes to go lower then 50% and by there own math anything lower then 50% on the top bracket shows no postive returns. Fees, fines, and other taxes like sales, property, utility, and other that disaproportionately impacts the working poor and middle class has gone up not down over the years. The majority pays for tax cuts for the rich they don't pay for themselves as the GOP would like you to believe.


Just stop. Please stop. You're ignorant and a bigot if you honestly believe Somalia is some Libertarian dream. Just stop. You're wrong.

Somalia is a shithole, no Libertarian or Republican has made it a paragon of their ideology. So, again, stop it.
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