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Post Reply What if the salary is commission based?
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Posted 7/13/17
For Mc Donald, every box of chicken mc nugget sold the cashier and fry cook gets 1 dollar. Every box of fries sold a dime, every cheese burger a nickel. Every bottle of coke a nickel. That which replaces the base salary, is it worth it?

For programmers, every program sold to the company gets 20% to each programmer distributed based on their task.

For instructors, every student gets 10% of the tuition.

If the company makes money, people make money, company loses money, people don't earn as much, sounds fair?


P.S Everyone should retire early, not become a slave for the job
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Posted 7/13/17 , edited 7/13/17
That would be a hard sell.

Let us say that a corporation wants to sell its products for as much money as possible to everyone all the time while paying their employees as little as possible as few times as possible. They do not want competition, so they buy up everyone who sells the same or similar products. They don't want to be broken up as a monopoly, so they pay off the local, state, and federal politicians and judges. They want all the money ever, so they buy established businesses unrelated to their original product until eventually they are the sole provider of everything and then...

ROBOTS!
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Posted 7/13/17 , edited 7/13/17

gornotck wrote:

That would be a hard sell.

Let us say that a corporation wants to sell its products for as much money as possible to everyone all the time while paying their employees as little as possible as few times as possible. They do not want competition, so they buy up everyone who sells the same or similar products. They don't want to be broken up as a monopoly, so they pay off the local, state, and federal politicians and judges. They want all the money ever, so they buy established businesses unrelated to their original product until eventually they are the sole provider of everything and then...

ROBOTS!


Not if you try to hit 20 dollars a day lol, you'd be surprised how much money it would get you. And of course the population density is also
an important. If you want to hit the 7.25 dollars mark you could probably get out in 2 hours like me :P

The idea, if you want more money, you work over time, you get more customers, more commission, of course if you are working night shift the amount has to double. If you don't want to earn money at a fast rate, you sit back and relax, you could slowly build up your money over the 20 years period.

After all, this system is built based on your contribution, and it can't fail. The company and you will always earn money. The harder you work, the more you get paid.

~~~~~~~~

Actually I dunno how to argue with this one, it does seems like how the current society is going


gornotck wrote:

That would be a hard sell.

Let us say that a corporation wants to sell its products for as much money as possible to everyone all the time while paying their employees as little as possible as few times as possible. They do not want competition, so they buy up everyone who sells the same or similar products. They don't want to be broken up as a monopoly, so they pay off the local, state, and federal politicians and judges. They want all the money ever, so they buy established businesses unrelated to their original product until eventually they are the sole provider of everything and then...

ROBOTS!


Alright, I got an answer. If someone owns the entire planet, you probably won't get anywhere. There are still lands and society that the corporation cannot own, it is called the government property. The government would be the one to stand in its way, legally, for people.

A corporation like that calls for heavy taxation, maybe 80% taxation. The money would then be distributed to citizen as goods and services or vouchers. Which, if done right, the company would be providing service for the citizens and the needy. People vote for the government, so the government needs to answer people's call


P.S If the corporation is stronger than the military, welp, we'll need Avengers
P.S Now this contribution system can also be implemented by the government

Dragon
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Posted 7/13/17

fredreload wrote:

For Mc Donald, every box of chicken mc nugget sold the cashier and fry cook gets 1 dollar. Every box of fries sold a dime, every cheese burger a nickel. Every bottle of coke a nickel. That which replaces the base salary, is it worth it?

For programmers, every program sold to the company gets 20% to each programmer distributed based on their task.

For instructors, every student gets 10% of the tuition.

If the company makes money, people make money, company loses money, people don't earn as much, sounds fair?


P.S Everyone should retire early, not become a slave for the job


Well.. I'm a programmer, so I'll talk that part of things. I'm assuming you mean that the programmers as a group split 20% based on how much they did. Programming and projects that require programming take time. Most of the projects I've been on took between 3 and 5 years, for example. Waiting to be paid for even 1 year would be a pretty tough sell.

Now, some of the companies I've worked for had profit sharing plans - so you'd get a salary + bonus checks based on sales, but those were more like 2-5% of sales split between employees. Still enough for a few folks to buy houses back in the day, but it wouldn't have been possible to wait for those checks until after the product started selling, that's for sure.
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Posted 7/13/17

MakotoKamui wrote:


fredreload wrote:

For Mc Donald, every box of chicken mc nugget sold the cashier and fry cook gets 1 dollar. Every box of fries sold a dime, every cheese burger a nickel. Every bottle of coke a nickel. That which replaces the base salary, is it worth it?

For programmers, every program sold to the company gets 20% to each programmer distributed based on their task.

For instructors, every student gets 10% of the tuition.

If the company makes money, people make money, company loses money, people don't earn as much, sounds fair?


P.S Everyone should retire early, not become a slave for the job


Well.. I'm a programmer, so I'll talk that part of things. I'm assuming you mean that the programmers as a group split 20% based on how much they did. Programming and projects that require programming take time. Most of the projects I've been on took between 3 and 5 years, for example. Waiting to be paid for even 1 year would be a pretty tough sell.

Now, some of the companies I've worked for had profit sharing plans - so you'd get a salary + bonus checks based on sales, but those were more like 2-5% of sales split between employees. Still enough for a few folks to buy houses back in the day, but it wouldn't have been possible to wait for those checks until after the product started selling, that's for sure.


Even 2~5% is pretty decent. I am also a programmer and we work on PDM system(web product management) in Taiwan with Visual Studio and C#. Originally, from what I've heard from my previous boss, the PDM system developed had only core functions and was sold to the factories for 200k US dollars. Of course all that money goes to the company. Now we've written another PDM system which is more complete, but we only get paid a base salary of 1400 dollars a month. Only around 8 people are working on this PDM system and these two people completes around 80% of the codes from China. Our motto is work without complaining. Keep in mine we are not a software company. In comparison, other PDM services cost around 750k. The company would not use it because it is being cheap
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Posted 7/13/17

fredreload wrote:

Alright, I got an answer. If someone owns the entire planet, you probably won't get anywhere. There are still lands and society that the corporation cannot own, it is called the government property. The government would be the one to stand in its way, legally, for people.

A corporation like that calls for heavy taxation, maybe 80% taxation. The money would then be distributed to citizen as goods and services or vouchers. Which, if done right, the company would be providing service for the citizens and the needy. People vote for the government, so the government needs to answer people's call


P.S If the corporation is stronger than the military, welp, we'll need Avengers
P.S Now this contribution system can also be implemented by the government



Corporations purchase government or "public" land all the time. Additionally in the example I gave, the corporation had bought the legistlation and judiciary. They could push laws and findings that support their desire until they are the de facto government and can do away with the pretense.
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Posted 7/13/17

fredreload wrote:

Even 2~5% is pretty decent. I am also a programmer and we work on PDM system(web product management) in Taiwan with Visual Studio and C#. Originally, from what I've heard from my previous boss, the PDM system developed had only core functions and was sold to the factories for 200k US dollars. Of course all that money goes to the company. Now we've written another PDM system which is more complete, but we only get paid a base salary of 1400 dollars a month. Only around 8 people are working on this PDM system and these two people completes around 80% of the codes from China. Our motto is work without complaining. Keep in mine we are not a software company. In comparison, other PDM services cost around 750k. The company would not use it because it is being cheap


Just out of curiosity, how long do your product cycles last? Could you live on nothing until your first project was finished, rather than your starting salary? Because that's what your proposed system in this thread would require, if I was reading it correctly.

I mean, the companies I worked for also had their systems.. money was distributed to the company from our publishers in batches - starting payment, then each milestone we met would mean another payment, until the overall cost of the project was met on release, after which profit sharing came into play depending on the contract (and not all contracts included profit sharing).

Multiple projects going on simultaneously meant that we all got paid, even if some projects were doing better than others, because sometimes Star Trek games did well, while other times Dora The Explorer wasn't quite as hot, but they were just as hard to work on, and that's what the company was paying us for. Rolling the products meant we all did well, even if individual projects were still well in the future. Combine that with the fact that in general, products sold best within a month of release, after which profits barely trickled in, and 2-5% isn't useful for living expenses. My boss came into my office one day laughing over his most recent profit check from Star Wars - X-Wing: Alliance. It wasn't enough to pay for a hamburger at that point.

Or, I suppose, to put it another way, if you worked for a McDonald's where the fries were selling great, but no one liked the McNuggets, you might not like getting paid for what you were assigned to sell, either, since you were still working, and your work still helped with the fries when you mopped the floors or changed out the oil that both fries and McNuggets used.
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Posted 7/13/17 , edited 7/13/17

MakotoKamui wrote:


fredreload wrote:

Even 2~5% is pretty decent. I am also a programmer and we work on PDM system(web product management) in Taiwan with Visual Studio and C#. Originally, from what I've heard from my previous boss, the PDM system developed had only core functions and was sold to the factories for 200k US dollars. Of course all that money goes to the company. Now we've written another PDM system which is more complete, but we only get paid a base salary of 1400 dollars a month. Only around 8 people are working on this PDM system and these two people completes around 80% of the codes from China. Our motto is work without complaining. Keep in mine we are not a software company. In comparison, other PDM services cost around 750k. The company would not use it because it is being cheap


Just out of curiosity, how long do your product cycles last? Could you live on nothing until your first project was finished, rather than your starting salary? Because that's what your proposed system in this thread would require, if I was reading it correctly.

I mean, the companies I worked for also had their systems.. money was distributed to the company from our publishers in batches - starting payment, then each milestone we met would mean another payment, until the overall cost of the project was met on release, after which profit sharing came into play depending on the contract (and not all contracts included profit sharing).

Multiple projects going on simultaneously meant that we all got paid, even if some projects were doing better than others, because sometimes Star Trek games did well, while other times Dora The Explorer wasn't quite as hot, but they were just as hard to work on, and that's what the company was paying us for. Rolling the products meant we all did well, even if individual projects were still well in the future. Combine that with the fact that in general, products sold best within a month of release, after which profits barely trickled in, and 2-5% isn't useful for living expenses. My boss came into my office one day laughing over his most recent profit check from Star Wars - X-Wing: Alliance. It wasn't enough to pay for a hamburger at that point.

Or, I suppose, to put it another way, if you worked for a McDonald's where the fries were selling great, but no one liked the McNuggets, you might not like getting paid for what you were assigned to sell, either, since you were still working, and your work still helped with the fries when you mopped the floors or changed out the oil that both fries and McNuggets used.


Our product cycle lasts for a year, I think, and once finished the PDM system would be deployed for that factory for use, while there are changes to the tracking reports, most PDM system are similar to each other for the factories we deploy. We earn a base salary of 1400 dollars based on our ranks, Chinese people get less. We engineers does not know much about how our programs are used, we are given specs and make the changes accordingly. For instance, find the greatest among mat3 and format3 and call that Bottom Material ETA in the tracking report. But what the heck is Bottom Material ETA? How much money do they make with the PDM system? This is more on the business manager side where they discuss with the customers and create specs for our programs, they are usually of higher ranks and do not know programming, supposedly.

Well, people's work decide their salary. Just like a program, mopping the floor would be consider a small function, fry cook bigger back end function, cashier front end etc. It really does depend on who walks in and order a meal. Yes I have to agree that no people eating, no pay. This is where you move to the next job.

A successful worker should get out in 2~3 years while having enough money to enjoy for 10 years.


gornotck wrote:


fredreload wrote:

Alright, I got an answer. If someone owns the entire planet, you probably won't get anywhere. There are still lands and society that the corporation cannot own, it is called the government property. The government would be the one to stand in its way, legally, for people.

A corporation like that calls for heavy taxation, maybe 80% taxation. The money would then be distributed to citizen as goods and services or vouchers. Which, if done right, the company would be providing service for the citizens and the needy. People vote for the government, so the government needs to answer people's call


P.S If the corporation is stronger than the military, welp, we'll need Avengers
P.S Now this contribution system can also be implemented by the government



Corporations purchase government or "public" land all the time. Additionally in the example I gave, the corporation had bought the legistlation and judiciary. They could push laws and findings that support their desire until they are the de facto government and can do away with the pretense.


The government officials are selected by people so you can veto the government official and elect new officials if you think they are being fishy.
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Posted 7/13/17


Right, but I was going back to part of your original post:

That which replaces the base salary, is it worth it?


I think you're agreeing that no, replacing the base salary is not worth it. You have your base salary and need it, for example. Scaling the salary based on work is what you're going with here, mostly? With supplemental bonuses based on sales, again scaled to what the worker did? And, should the company sell nothing, then it goes out of business anyway, and all salaries are 0.
Posted 7/13/17

MakotoKamui wrote:
I think you're agreeing that no, replacing the base salary is not worth it. You have your base salary and need it, for example. Scaling the salary based on work is what you're going with here, mostly? With supplemental bonuses based on sales, again scaled to what the worker did? And, should the company sell nothing, then it goes out of business anyway, and all salaries are 0.


This ^

The issue with a salary that's strictly commission-based is that there's a high risk/reward factor. This is why even when you have a sales team selling the product, they make a base salary on top of the commission. There are other factors that would make it a bit of a complicated scenario, some of which MakotoKamui pointed out (like what happens to those who aren't selling the product at a McDonald's?). Commission-based salaries are one of the reasons that I'd never go into a sales position (other than the fact that it's a soulless position that encourages you to lie pitch to the customer).
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Posted 7/13/17 , edited 7/13/17

MakotoKamui wrote:



Right, but I was going back to part of your original post:

That which replaces the base salary, is it worth it?


I think you're agreeing that no, replacing the base salary is not worth it. You have your base salary and need it, for example. Scaling the salary based on work is what you're going with here, mostly? With supplemental bonuses based on sales, again scaled to what the worker did? And, should the company sell nothing, then it goes out of business anyway, and all salaries are 0.


Well if the PDM(product management) system is deployed for the factories to regulate the production then yes the company is earning profits. It's just being a shoe OEM company it is kind of hard to value how much our work goes into the pay. We had a number before of 200k for a PDM system sold to the factory, but none of that went to the programmer, and it was only a PDM system with core functions from the previous employees. If our current PDM system's worth is 750k, I wouldn't mind getting 5% of it minus the base salary. I could probably put in more work and get the 10%.


P.S Yes I should try and understand my job more before I make the argument = =


ninjitsuko wrote:


MakotoKamui wrote:
I think you're agreeing that no, replacing the base salary is not worth it. You have your base salary and need it, for example. Scaling the salary based on work is what you're going with here, mostly? With supplemental bonuses based on sales, again scaled to what the worker did? And, should the company sell nothing, then it goes out of business anyway, and all salaries are 0.


This ^

The issue with a salary that's strictly commission-based is that there's a high risk/reward factor. This is why even when you have a sales team selling the product, they make a base salary on top of the commission. There are other factors that would make it a bit of a complicated scenario, some of which MakotoKamui pointed out (like what happens to those who aren't selling the product at a McDonald's?). Commission-based salaries are one of the reasons that I'd never go into a sales position (other than the fact that it's a soulless position that encourages you to lie pitch to the customer).


Right but commission system seems like the only fair system for the company. The earning of the guy mopping the floor goes with the entire restaurant based on the restaurant's earning. Well if the restaurant is not getting customer it could be a problem, but if it is earning money then all is well the money is shared for each worker


P.S Yes I would like to keep the base salary, but then that wouldn't be fair to the company
Posted 7/13/17

fredreload wrote:
Right but commission system seems like the only fair system for the company. The earning of the guy mopping the floor goes with the entire restaurant based on the restaurant's earning. Well if the restaurant is not getting customer it could be a problem, but if it is earning money then all is well the money is shared for each worker


P.S Yes I would like to keep the base salary, but then that wouldn't be fair to the company


Commission systems easily backfire against a company. Case and point: a company I used to work for fired all of their sales agents because they were lying to the potential customer to get a sale. Even if that customer got through onboarding, it would take 3-4 months before the customer finally realized that the things that were promised to them just couldn't function on the company's platform. The sales agent already got his 10% commission and they sure as hell aren't going to give it back. In the end, it killed the company - sales didn't know the product, didn't care to know the product, and just kept pushing it to make sure they would take home their $15,000 a month from commissions + $80k a year base salary.

In the examples of a fast food place, there are some locations that only exist as part of a "local scene". Which means that a Burger King in middle of nowhere (let's say Yadkinville, North Carolina) is only going to get the one or two locals per day. Most of their traffic will come during holiday seasons where people are traveling US-421 to get to a vacation/holiday destination. This means for 9-10 months of the year, they'll get next to nothing.

The issue with a commission-based system for all forms of work is that not all fields are primarily customer or sales-focused. On top of that, you're basically asking employees to work for nothing unless the owners of the restaurant are doing their job properly (a place like McDonald's or Burger King, as an example, will only get a reasonable amount of traffic if the owners put up money for billboards on the highway, ad placement, and make sure that everything is kept up to date/modernized and healthy). It's not fair to the employee to not get paid to do their job. The coder gets paid to code, not to sell the software or platform. The maid or servant is paid to clean and cook, not to make sure that the kid isn't flinging their poo all over the house or that they have the best cuts of meat in the fridge. The construction worker is paid to build a building, not to make sure that there are residents that live there or companies that lease offices in the building.

This is where the commission-based scheme/model simply fails before it gets out of the window.
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Posted 7/13/17 , edited 7/13/17

ninjitsuko wrote:


fredreload wrote:
Right but commission system seems like the only fair system for the company. The earning of the guy mopping the floor goes with the entire restaurant based on the restaurant's earning. Well if the restaurant is not getting customer it could be a problem, but if it is earning money then all is well the money is shared for each worker


P.S Yes I would like to keep the base salary, but then that wouldn't be fair to the company


Commission systems easily backfire against a company. Case and point: a company I used to work for fired all of their sales agents because they were lying to the potential customer to get a sale. Even if that customer got through onboarding, it would take 3-4 months before the customer finally realized that the things that were promised to them just couldn't function on the company's platform. The sales agent already got his 10% commission and they sure as hell aren't going to give it back. In the end, it killed the company - sales didn't know the product, didn't care to know the product, and just kept pushing it to make sure they would take home their $15,000 a month from commissions + $80k a year base salary.

In the examples of a fast food place, there are some locations that only exist as part of a "local scene". Which means that a Burger King in middle of nowhere (let's say Yadkinville, North Carolina) is only going to get the one or two locals per day. Most of their traffic will come during holiday seasons where people are traveling US-421 to get to a vacation/holiday destination. This means for 9-10 months of the year, they'll get next to nothing.

The issue with a commission-based system for all forms of work is that not all fields are primarily customer or sales-focused. On top of that, you're basically asking employees to work for nothing unless the owners of the restaurant are doing their job properly (a place like McDonald's or Burger King, as an example, will only get a reasonable amount of traffic if the owners put up money for billboards on the highway, ad placement, and make sure that everything is kept up to date/modernized and healthy). It's not fair to the employee to not get paid to do their job. The coder gets paid to code, not to sell the software or platform. The maid or servant is paid to clean and cook, not to make sure that the kid isn't flinging their poo all over the house or that they have the best cuts of meat in the fridge. The construction worker is paid to build a building, not to make sure that there are residents that live there or companies that lease offices in the building.

This is where the commission-based scheme/model simply fails before it gets out of the window.


Ya, commission based is about people who want to start their own company. Points taken if I am skilled enough I'd probably start my own company. Or sell my own program. Thanks for the correction


P.S But hey, if someone ever agrees to my commission scheme I'd be guaranteed to make money , without providing base salary that is, I am not sure if this falls into the rat company scheme though ninjitsuko sir

Coders 50%, models 30%, sales 20%, and sell it like hot cakes. You sell 1 million copies, you get rich. You sell 1 unit, you get a hamburger. This is a guarantee money for everyone, right? I don't see how a company could lose money this way
Posted 7/13/17

fredreload wrote:
Ya, commission based is about people who want to start their own company. Points taken if I am skilled enough I'd probably start my own company. Or sell my own program. Thanks for the correction


I think the main issue is that there isn't a "catch-all" logic when it comes to workers. Some are skilled and are happy doing work for other people. Some are talented and want to branch off and do their own thing. Some are just trying to make ends meet without being homeless.

I agree with one thing you said in the original post, though.


"P.S Everyone should retire early, not become a slave for the job"


Both MakotoKamui and I have spoken about this in another thread, about how much of a "buffer" we like to have in our savings. At the current rate, I can likely retire in two years (at 35 years of age, and will be able to sustain myself until I'm 90 or older). In an ideal situation, I suggest people should have at least 5-10 years' worth of savings. If you want to take a few years to reflect on life or go back to school to seek another profession, or just take a break... then, you'd be able to. As my grandfather always said: "One should work to live, not live to work."

Even though I'll "retire" early, I'm going to leave open the possibility of working more - just in a different field. Might take a few years off and just think about starting my own company or work on various applications that I've had ideas about but haven't found the time to build and test. Who knows? But it's still something that's usually a good idea. Sure, you'll be counting pennies and struggling for a few years while you save up - but it just means that you don't spend outside of your means (which is a common thing among my peers).
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Posted 7/13/17 , edited 7/13/17

ninjitsuko wrote:


fredreload wrote:
Ya, commission based is about people who want to start their own company. Points taken if I am skilled enough I'd probably start my own company. Or sell my own program. Thanks for the correction


I think the main issue is that there isn't a "catch-all" logic when it comes to workers. Some are skilled and are happy doing work for other people. Some are talented and want to branch off and do their own thing. Some are just trying to make ends meet without being homeless.

I agree with one thing you said in the original post, though.


"P.S Everyone should retire early, not become a slave for the job"


Both MakotoKamui and I have spoken about this in another thread, about how much of a "buffer" we like to have in our savings. At the current rate, I can likely retire in two years (at 35 years of age, and will be able to sustain myself until I'm 90 or older). In an ideal situation, I suggest people should have at least 5-10 years' worth of savings. If you want to take a few years to reflect on life or go back to school to seek another profession, or just take a break... then, you'd be able to. As my grandfather always said: "One should work to live, not live to work."

Even though I'll "retire" early, I'm going to leave open the possibility of working more - just in a different field. Might take a few years off and just think about starting my own company or work on various applications that I've had ideas about but haven't found the time to build and test. Who knows? But it's still something that's usually a good idea. Sure, you'll be counting pennies and struggling for a few years while you save up - but it just means that you don't spend outside of your means (which is a common thing among my peers).


It is cool you have a goal in mind and can retire early. I guess I'll figure out a plan for myself as well boss


P.S Hmm, maybe I'll sell aqua cola, nvm that thing is donated to the gov
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