Post Reply Helping those struggling in the industry
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28 / M / canada
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Posted 8/2/17 , edited 8/2/17
Hello! Everyone, I'm a programmer and I am currently in the planning stages of creating a patronage service which will connect fans to workers within the industry that create some of our most favourite works.

As you know, many of those who work in the anime industry work very long hours for pay that is sorely below the minimum wage in Japan. More details here (https://kotaku.com/average-anime-industry-salaries-get-depressing-1774852881)

So here's the idea, what if after you finish a series, you have the option to donate a small amount (a tip) to show your appreciation for those who worked hard in producing it? The process will be transparent and the fans who have tipped will be able to communicate to those who worked on the series in a forum to show their appreciation.

Imagine if after those of us who watched something amazing like Gurren Lagann, and we all tipped 1 or 2 dollars to show our appreciation. If 100k watched the show and tipped, we would be able to significantly bolster the income of those who make the least in the industry.

Those who make above 2500 dollars a month would not qualify for the program but those who fall below that would get a share of the tips based on their contribution to the work.

Doing this may help those who aspire to be in the industry to have a chance and allow those who work hard on the things we love to not have to worry about where their next meal will come from.

I'm willing to work on this project but I need to know the public's opinion, let me know
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27 / M / This Dying World
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Posted 8/2/17 , edited 8/2/17
Yes.

Let us consume the work and spit on the creators as well.

What a terrible thing... tipping.
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from the South Bay
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Posted 8/2/17 , edited 8/2/17
there are those in Japan who started a dormitory project for the animators in Japan

https://www.generosity.com/fundraising/2017-animator-dormitory-project

helping out for the most basic needs . Sugawara san has figured out a means to help and get things done. I am helping Sugawara's plan.

Your plan is abit more...
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27 / F / Various
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Posted 8/2/17 , edited 8/2/17
Okay, but how?

And how do you know they'd accept it? Tipping is generally not done in Japan.

(And the fact that some might see it as an acceptance of those standards, a band-aid to put on it if you don't think it can ever change. Which is the criticism of industries outside of Japan that have tips).

Also, how would the tips get divided? Would the tipper get to choose which animators get it? How would they know exactly who to thank for it? There are a lot of animators, and not even the fans with the highest amount of knowledge of the animation process would necessarily be able to tell who did what. (One solution to this would be for the animation team to choose ~5 or so "moments" or "pieces" of the episode that they thought came out the best, select specific team members who - from the animators' point of view - are most to thank for that part, and have fans tip based on those.)

. . . . I had an idea about something that could be done to help animators, which is, what if animators made, like, drawing tutorials or something, and sold them as ebooks or videos, online, for ~100-300yen ($1-3). Like, under-10-page books, or under-20-minute videos. The sort of things people post a lot of on Youtube and Pixiv for free. But by charging for it - sort of like a lot of people do on Patreon - they could get a little extra income. ... there's noting stopping people from doing this now, but I guess the idea hasn't caught on?
Small merchandise, like stickers or buttons, would also be good.
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32 / M
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Posted 8/2/17 , edited 8/2/17
Now now you need to make the website credible . Once it built up its reputation people would flood in
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28 / M / canada
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Posted 8/2/17 , edited 8/2/17

LavenderMintRose wrote:

Okay, but how?

And how do you know they'd accept it? Tipping is generally not done in Japan.

(And the fact that some might see it as an acceptance of those standards, a band-aid to put on it if you don't think it can ever change. Which is the criticism of industries outside of Japan that have tips).

Also, how would the tips get divided? Would the tipper get to choose which animators get it? How would they know exactly who to thank for it? There are a lot of animators, and not even the fans with the highest amount of knowledge of the animation process would necessarily be able to tell who did what. (One solution to this would be for the animation team to choose ~5 or so "moments" or "pieces" of the episode that they thought came out the best, select specific team members who - from the animators' point of view - are most to thank for that part, and have fans tip based on those.)

. . . . I had an idea about something that could be done to help animators, which is, what if animators made, like, drawing tutorials or something, and sold them as ebooks or videos, online, for ~100-300yen ($1-3). Like, under-10-page books, or under-20-minute videos. The sort of things people post a lot of on Youtube and Pixiv for free. But by charging for it - sort of like a lot of people do on Patreon - they could get a little extra income. ... there's noting stopping people from doing this now, but I guess the idea hasn't caught on?
Small merchandise, like stickers or buttons, would also be good.


Those are great questions, let me address your first question.

1) Q - "How do you know they'd accept it? Tipping is generally not done in japan"

A - While there are definite cultural barriers to things like tipping, but tipping is also a social construct made by us humans specifically connected to the catering and service industry. If we were to instead name this as a fan contribution, and separate ourselves by focusing on the positivity of fans showing appreciation for their work, I'm quite certain those who are struggling to make ends meet would not be opposed to accepting financial contributions for their work.

2) Q - "How would the tips get divided?"

A - This is the biggest hurdle we would have for this project, if you look at the crew involved in creating Anohana (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/anime.php?id=12368), the list of people involved is ridiculous and there is really no way to distinguish how much they actually contributed to the production. So instead of going through each contributor, they would have to come to us instead with proof of their work on the project, from there the decision will be made on how much should be divided.


To be clear this is still an idea, I have not done any work on this project yet but I understand the challenges many of these young workers are facing and I want to help. Providing a platform where fans can support the people who are behind their favourite works directly (as opposed to indirectly through buying DVD's and Blurays) and also interact with them might be something good for this industry.



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28 / M / canada
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Posted 8/2/17 , edited 8/2/17
@iashakezula That's a fantastic project! Thank you for sharing!
Posted 8/2/17 , edited 8/2/17
Great idea, those working in the projects are without a doubt exploited heavily by production committees.
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29 / M / USA
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Posted 8/2/17 , edited 8/2/17
Brutal truth time? If someone had money to give, this would likely be the worst way for them to give it.

It wouldn't make enough to pay the staff it would need to run for a day, if you worked people for no pay you'd still have no way of vetting applications or notifying animators that there was money available for projects they participated in, of the few who wrote in most would be scams, and when you finally send money out you'd be giving someone a couple cents from tiny scattered donations earmarked for hundreds of different projects with feeble apologies to those who wrote in too late to get anything. Not to mention how insensitive the approach most likely is to the animators in question.

AND it would be taking money out of the pool that could've gone to other better fund raising campaigns.

If you want to help give to the animator dormitory funding campaigns or contact them/other people in the industry who lobby for animators/other underpaid staff and ask what you can do, because I'm positive this will not be their answer.
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33 / M / North Dakota
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Posted 8/2/17 , edited 8/3/17
I think in theory, it's an okay idea. In practice, like others have said previously, it would be more trouble than the money it's likely to draw in. Considering the type of people anime tends to draw in - stereotypes be damned - I don't think the gains would justify the effort on many people's parts. I like the thought of supporting artists that I really like, and I definitely dislike how so much of the money bypasses them... it's been the bane of the anime industry for as long as it has been around, but the groundwork doesn't really seem that possible given the type of money flow we're talking about...

...also...
As far as tipping being a "terrible thing" - that sounds like the opinion of someone who hasn't had to try to pay his or her bills making less than minimum wage - or a born and raised Japanese person. There's a point where the honor thing bites you in the ass, and considering tips an insult is one of 'em... as skewed as that concept is to start. If you do a good job, and you get paid poorly, you earned whatever tip you get. I think them not being mandatory in most industries and still receiving them should be a source of pride for the ones who get them, because it reflects on the quality of their work and the satisfaction of their customers

It's what is known as an incentive, and it helps keep the quality of work higher than it would otherwise be in unskilled labor. Customer service type jobs are not easy jobs, regardless of what people who have not done them like to think, there's a lot to deal with on even an average day and the stress levels are often very high, because a lot of customers are complete assholes. What happens when people don't have the proper incentive to work? - the quality slides dramatically, or positions are left empty and people don't get service at all
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from the South Bay
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Posted 8/2/17 , edited 8/3/17
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29 / M / USA
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Posted 8/2/17 , edited 8/3/17
Calling this tipping is a conceit for the giver only, at the end of the day it's applying for charity and there's no way the applicant isn't going to feel that. The only way this could be called tipping is if we could break down anime cuts by animator and give to them by name for the specific work they did which isn't possible.

Since there's no way to quantify the amount given by merit the whole incentive model breaks down completely.

And then there's the likely problem of under-tipping being psychologically worse than not tipping at all.

I feel like I'm feeding puppies into a wood chipper with these posts but this is the feedback that should be spoken and heard if someone's serious about this, right? Even though saying it feels shitty.
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Posted 8/4/17 , edited 8/4/17
Individual choice is not a solution especially when the donor do not would know who would actually get their tips. A better method is to modify the system, institution, or policies so the worker will get proper payment for their work. By the way, I wonder why the workers in the anime industries would get low wage for their long work? Does this have something to do with the cospiracy of the invisible hand?
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27 / F / Various
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Posted 8/4/17 , edited 8/4/17
Can you sign up for Patreon in Japan (e.g. with a Japanese bank account, etc.)?

Why hasn't someone tried to get more animators on Patreon? Or set up a more Japanese version of it, if it's not well-received in Japan?

Also, as for the money not going to the animators, it's not like it just goes to some greedy executive. It goes to all the other people that make the anime happen, too. That means office staff, but it also means composers, musicians, the television broadcast (the producers pay the TV stations for this stuff, not the other way around), and - actually, the biggest cut - the voice actors. And let's be honest - how much would you pay to watch an animator draw, or do something for a couple of hours? And how much would you pay to watch your favorite seiyuu's concert? I would pay quite a bit to watch a drawing lesson from an animator, but that's because I draw, too.
But in all entertainment, the audience looks right past the others involved and gives everything to the actors.

The best way to get more money to the animators is probably to just make it so that anime makes more money in general. Which is complicated. Most of the financial incentives for the funding of anime aren't made back directly - they're made through other agreements, like advertising, and sales of related products. And there are various other things that would need to happen in order for that to make it to the animators.

So, yeah... get animators on Patreon. Why hasn't this happened?
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28 / M / canada
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Posted 8/8/17 , edited 8/8/17

Insomnist wrote:

Calling this tipping is a conceit for the giver only, at the end of the day it's applying for charity and there's no way the applicant isn't going to feel that. The only way this could be called tipping is if we could break down anime cuts by animator and give to them by name for the specific work they did which isn't possible.

Since there's no way to quantify the amount given by merit the whole incentive model breaks down completely.

And then there's the likely problem of under-tipping being psychologically worse than not tipping at all.

I feel like I'm feeding puppies into a wood chipper with these posts but this is the feedback that should be spoken and heard if someone's serious about this, right? Even though saying it feels shitty.


You're right after mulling it over for a few days, the idea seems impractical and may offend the animators. I'll have to draw up a new idea. Thank you everyone for your wonderful feedback, hopefully we can keep this conversation going so that we can find ways to help the people who produce the works that we all enjoy.

Before leaving please do check out this project which provides housing and everyday necessities to animators struggling in the industry.

http://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-news/2015/04/03/article-profiles-the-opening-of-crowd-funded-anime-dorm
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