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Post Reply The 4th industrial revolution isn't going to be resolved like the previous three
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Posted 8/16/17 , edited 8/16/17

spensaur wrote:


fredreload wrote:


nanikore2 wrote:


fredreload wrote:

It's 4 posts above this post


It doesn't say how someone is paid for doing no work.


If the owner of the food company can produce food fully automated everything just by himself, he could get paid in terms of housing. So he gets a really large house. His food is shared among all people wealthy or not as an equal distribution. This is not worrying about food taste good or bad, it's all equally distributed. Now the rest of the people would work to compete for housing and other matters.

Therefore, either the people work or not, they all get food, thanks to the automated system


This idea, in a much more detailed manner, has been discussed and thought of by Jacques Fresco's Venus Project. He wanted to create a city that was self driving, literally. Skyscrapers that were green houses that automatically ran themselves through advanced hydroponics, essentially producing food on it's own. There was much more to his idea, you could read up on it if you're interested.


I sort of have an idea on generating food. It's on another post about using Rubisco enzyme and ATP to produce carbohydrate. The water could be filtrated from salt water. It's all doable today but, dunno how it goes
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Posted 8/16/17 , edited 8/16/17

nanikore2 wrote:


fredreload wrote:


nanikore2 wrote:

You should think of this from the other direction.

I am the owner. I don't want to share anything with anyone else. Why should I?


Yes, that is the current problem we are facing. Hmm, if you are the sole owner for food you could sell it as expensive as diamond or more, because people need food.

1. Enters the equal competitor, that sells the food for less price, you and him both sells the food until it becomes a really low price.

2. Enters the not so good competitor, the competitor gets crushed, the price of everything else raises along with the food, where the water is just as or even more expensive.

3. You own all food and water and the entire planet, you wouldn't share, everyone else starves to death .

This is how I see it, no offense


(Almost-)paradoxically, when you remove the money... everything could get even worse.

I am the owner, I sell stuff or I could just don't sell because these automation provides what I need already.

The rest of the people that's out of this "loop" is going to be without means of survival unless they all go out and grow their own food. From scratch. With no money or anyone to sell stuff to them (like farming equipment) even if they do have money which is now worthless. Good luck for them.

Unfortunately, the owners would behave just like that. You can't count on people sharing. They might, if they feel like it.

Looking bleak.


P.S How do you think the no one gets paid problem should be solved Nanikore?


I just saw the above p.s.... Right now, I can't think of any solution. If it gets that way and you're not "an owner", you are screwed.


That's why you need taxation. The only thing more powerful than the company is the government. That's say you profit 100 dollars from your food, 50 percent goes to tax and re distributed to the people to buy your food. The next cycle, you profit 50 dollars from your food, you tax 50% which is 25 dollars for people. Does not work does it hmm.

You profit 100 dollars 80% goes to people to buy your food. The next time you profit 50 dollars and 50% goes to people. So now the people have 55 dollars, sounds about right.
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Posted 8/16/17 , edited 8/16/17

nanikore2 wrote:

Thinking about things philosophically sometimes gets you paid, but mostly not. But it's fun.


There's your art .

Well, I think eventually full automation means the bulk of all things 'physical' get taken over by machines. Perhaps there is a algorithmic process on the horizon that will take over the mental side of things as well but I think for some time machines will lack a certain creativity in industry. But, that too, is probably only temporary.

I think there are a myriad of potential futures. Maybe I'm getting ahead of it here but the most positive one would be to accept that machines will eventually do things better then us... We've got to figure out how to utilize them to understand every complexity of the human body and integrate with machines / genetically alter ourselves to do more and become more. Otherwise our usefulness is that of something that simply lives in a simulated and hallow reality.

Unlike the guy before you, I don't think the artist exists without hardship and pain. Machines have the potential to eliminate that. Or at least weaken its intensity.

I think we need to progress as a species or like mares before us we simply will die off and have little to no purpose. We can't all be rulers and artists. Because then there are no rulers and artists.

Think about most sci fi stories. What does it have that this future doesn't? Tech that serves us and integrates with us. Interestingly enough you usually don't see automation and construction in these stories. Probably because it is handled by machines. But a true reality would be war that is also handled by machines. Exploration that is handled by machines. And every combination you can think of.

Where is the future in that? If we don't figure out a symbiotic relationship and become more then what we are I don't think we have much purpose in a world where every struggle is handled by something else.

I think people become shittier then they already are and the good become lost.
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Posted 8/16/17 , edited 8/16/17

fredreload wrote:

That's why you need taxation. The only thing more powerful than the company is the government. That's say you profit 100 dollars from your food, 50 percent goes to tax and re distributed to the people to buy your food. The next cycle, you profit 50 dollars from your food, you tax 50% which is 25 dollars for people. Does not work does it hmm.

You profit 100 dollars 80% goes to people to buy your food. The next time you profit 50 dollars and 50% goes to people. So now the people have 55 dollars, sounds about right.


I guess everyone except the owners living on welfare is better than everyone except the owners dead.


...Not too much better though especially if the rich controls the government. Oh wait......
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Posted 8/16/17 , edited 8/16/17

nanikore2 wrote:


fredreload wrote:

That's why you need taxation. The only thing more powerful than the company is the government. That's say you profit 100 dollars from your food, 50 percent goes to tax and re distributed to the people to buy your food. The next cycle, you profit 50 dollars from your food, you tax 50% which is 25 dollars for people. Does not work does it hmm.

You profit 100 dollars 80% goes to people to buy your food. The next time you profit 50 dollars and 50% goes to people. So now the people have 55 dollars, sounds about right.


I guess everyone except the owners living on welfare is better than everyone except the owners dead.


...Not too much better though especially if the rich controls the government. Oh wait......


Wait, am I eligible for welfare oversea? Good point lol . Well either better welfare or, some other form of getting the food to your hand. The owner could just run the fully automated system for himself without establishing a company and we are still screwed

That's why so many companies in Taiwan are either closing or says they are moving to China when we demand a raise =/. All those companies leaving or closing and Taiwan would be left eating dirt

Anyway, that's before the whole thing becomes a reality and terminator 2 shows up
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Posted 8/16/17 , edited 8/16/17

mxdan wrote:


nanikore2 wrote:

Thinking about things philosophically sometimes gets you paid, but mostly not. But it's fun.


There's your art .

Well, I think eventually full automation means the bulk of all things 'physical' get taken over by machines. Perhaps there is a algorithmic process on the horizon that will take over the mental side of things as well but I think for some time machines will lack a certain creativity in industry. But, that too, is probably only temporary.

I think there are a myriad of potential futures. Maybe I'm getting ahead of it here but the most positive one would be to accept that machines will eventually do things better then us... We've got to figure out how to utilize them to understand every complexity of the human body and integrate with machines / genetically alter ourselves to do more and become more. Otherwise our usefulness is that of something that simply lives in a simulated and hallow reality.

Unlike the guy before you, I don't think the artist exists without hardship and pain. Machines have the potential to eliminate that.

I think we need to progress as a species or like mares before us we simply will die off and have little to no purpose. We can't all be rulers and artists. Because then there are no rulers and artists.

Think about most sci fi stories. What does it have that this future doesn't? Tech that serves us and integrates with us. Interestingly enough you usually don't see automation and construction in these stories. Probably because it is handled by machines. But a true reality would be war that is also handled by machines. Exploration that is handled by machines. And every combination you can think of.

Where is the future in that? If we don't figure out a symbiotic relationship and become more then what we are I don't think we have much purpose in a world where every struggle is handled by something else.

I think people become shittier then they already are and the good become lost.


I've seen circuit layout designs done by machines that boggles my mind. The darned program does stuff that no human designer would think of doing because it doesn't "think", it follows an algorithm. Thinking and following algorithms are very different activities. Sometimes, an auto-generated design turns out actually being better than some designer did. Scares the shit outta me.

Talking about rich locking out the poor makes me think of sci-fi too. One of them being this:

(automation a big plot point by the end of that movie)

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Posted 8/16/17 , edited 8/16/17

nanikore2 wrote:


mxdan wrote:


nanikore2 wrote:

Thinking about things philosophically sometimes gets you paid, but mostly not. But it's fun.


There's your art .

Well, I think eventually full automation means the bulk of all things 'physical' get taken over by machines. Perhaps there is a algorithmic process on the horizon that will take over the mental side of things as well but I think for some time machines will lack a certain creativity in industry. But, that too, is probably only temporary.

I think there are a myriad of potential futures. Maybe I'm getting ahead of it here but the most positive one would be to accept that machines will eventually do things better then us... We've got to figure out how to utilize them to understand every complexity of the human body and integrate with machines / genetically alter ourselves to do more and become more. Otherwise our usefulness is that of something that simply lives in a simulated and hallow reality.

Unlike the guy before you, I don't think the artist exists without hardship and pain. Machines have the potential to eliminate that.

I think we need to progress as a species or like mares before us we simply will die off and have little to no purpose. We can't all be rulers and artists. Because then there are no rulers and artists.

Think about most sci fi stories. What does it have that this future doesn't? Tech that serves us and integrates with us. Interestingly enough you usually don't see automation and construction in these stories. Probably because it is handled by machines. But a true reality would be war that is also handled by machines. Exploration that is handled by machines. And every combination you can think of.

Where is the future in that? If we don't figure out a symbiotic relationship and become more then what we are I don't think we have much purpose in a world where every struggle is handled by something else.

I think people become shittier then they already are and the good become lost.


I've seen circuit layout designs done by machines that boggles my mind. The darned program does stuff that no human designer would think of doing because it doesn't "think", it follows an algorithm. Thinking and following algorithms are very different activities. Sometimes, an auto-generated design turns out actually being better than some designer did. Scares the shit outta me.

Talking about rich locking out the poor makes me think of sci-fi too. One of them being this:

(automation a big plot point by the end of that movie)



Right, the machine does not think, but if you unleash the genetic algorithm, that is like playing god here. We humans are born with free will, so we can make decision. Good or bad. GA is pretty much going in a single direction->good good good good, we have no idea what it is going to turn into except that it is something where a decision making being cannot handle. We are flawed because we can make decisions, and not every step we take is necessarily the best step

Check out the sci-fi horror SCREAMER if you want to know what I am talking about

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPdIJ0EcDa8
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Posted 8/16/17 , edited 8/16/17

nanikore2 wrote:



Most people who work ARE "white collar types".



Picture this. Go to any university graduation ceremony where people are getting their 4-year degrees.

There's your "white collar types".





..So are you expecting me to sympathise with people who didn't major in something useful or in demand...? I mean this trend isn't exactly something new. The writing has been on the wall for what 30 or 40 years? Plenty of time to develop skills more suited to long term employment. You don't win games by insisting people play your game, ya win by beating them at theirs.
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Posted 8/16/17 , edited 8/16/17

nanikore2 wrote:


fredreload wrote:


spensaur wrote:

Personally, I think most things should be automated. It would give us humans more time to be creative and indulge in what we're supposed to do, creating art. More musicians, more dancers, more wood workers, more craftsmen, more art. I'm cool with that. Humans need to slow their roll and take it easy. Too many stressed out bozos out here worrying about being late to work, or their next appointment, rushing around everywhere without taking time to smell the roses. I mean honestly, I worked IT for 7 years and it's a brainless boring ass job that I would rather have a computer do instead of me anyways.

It's just my daydreamer opinion though.


I agree with you that most things should be automated, but the whole idea about machine taking over your job is that you would still want to get the money instead of being jobless. And that is what the whole argument is about. If the company is replacing you with a computer, you should still get paid. Same goes for the rest of us who's jobs been covered by a computer


The company would see no reason to pay someone who is not working.

I saw the thread regarding commissioned salary. The thing about that is, if there is no work, there is no commission either...


Good point from spensaur. I can address the issue from nanikore2: human could own robot slaves who provide wage from jobs for their owner. However, the employers would then decide to hire their own robot slaves to work for them. Even when human did get paid without jobs, another issue would arise: we would have robot stealing the dignity of human. I am aware of the current conflict between cohorts in the developed nations where the younger generation would oppose the values of the old generation so I could also fear a robot revolt when robot displace many human workers. KADO: The Right Answer do not have robot character but the anime discuss similar theme of technological advancement, social revolution, and dignity.
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Posted 8/17/17 , edited 8/17/17

fredreload wrote:


nanikore2 wrote:

I've seen circuit layout designs done by machines that boggles my mind. The darned program does stuff that no human designer would think of doing because it doesn't "think", it follows an algorithm. Thinking and following algorithms are very different activities. Sometimes, an auto-generated design turns out actually being better than some designer did. Scares the shit outta me.

Talking about rich locking out the poor makes me think of sci-fi too. One of them being this:

(automation a big plot point by the end of that movie)



Right, the machine does not think, but if you unleash the genetic algorithm, that is like playing god here. We humans are born with free will, so we can make decision. Good or bad. GA is pretty much going in a single direction->good good good good, we have no idea what it is going to turn into except that it is something where a decision making being cannot handle. We are flawed because we can make decisions, and not every step we take is necessarily the best step

Check out the sci-fi horror SCREAMER if you want to know what I am talking about

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPdIJ0EcDa8


Your definition of some words may need to be revised to describe futuristic robot with advanced cognition. Machine can make their own decision but they cannot make moral decision unless they are programed to input morality in their decision making. Machine can, in a sense, also think when their general algorithm include a program to alter their other programs.

In another topic, we do not have to worry about machine rationalizing their action like human unless the robot are programed to rationalized their robotic actions. Psychologists have known that humans have some sub-conscious tendency to act irrationally in some context and then rationized their action. If human want to design robot to be more human-like, then they should program the robot to explain how their robotic action is rational instead of making the robot act more rationally.
For example, as discussed in the burger flipping robot topic, the burger flipping robot could put mouse or some other pests into the burger just because they are not programed to avoid pests. If this robot were to rationalized their pre-programed action in such case (and are giving communication capacity with the associated general cognition), they could say something like this: "What do you mean that I cannot put mouse in the burger? The mouse is an edible organic material in the kitchen so I can put it in the burger. What do you mean that the mouse cannot be cooked just because it is a pest? I was never programed to process the concept of pest so the mouse must be a part of the burger. I was also never ordered to avoid pest. This is part of my faulty programing? What are you saying? Why would human programed my to make such irrational decision?"
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Posted 8/17/17 , edited 8/17/17
Pretty sure they said this about all the previous ones.
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Posted 8/18/17 , edited 8/18/17

Ranwolf wrote:

..So are you expecting me to sympathise with people who didn't major in something useful or in demand...? I mean this trend isn't exactly something new. The writing has been on the wall for what 30 or 40 years? Plenty of time to develop skills more suited to long term employment. You don't win games by insisting people play your game, ya win by beating them at theirs.


No you're supposed to sympathize with every single worker.

Like I've already said in the original post... Once the very top of the pyramids vanish then what? No more architects, design administrators so everyone gets to be CEOs? Once all work is taken over, there's nothing to retrain to.

An engineering designer like me is already "suitable for long term employment" because we've already worked for 15 to 20 years on the job. People like me designed what you're using to read this post so yes we "majored in something useful". However, long term viability still doesn't stop automation. So everyone is going to go back to school and get some other degree after 20 years? In what?


sinoakayumi wrote:

I can address the issue from nanikore2: human could own robot slaves who provide wage from jobs for their owner.


...There's no more jobs for the people outside the loops, no matter what they own.

The company owners already own the robots so why would they want to pay others for the robot labor they already own?
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Posted 8/18/17 , edited 8/18/17
Can't help but feel that progress shouldn't be held back because people can't keep up. Besides there will always be jobs that are uniquely human in nature. A robot can sure mimic the human thought process and experience, but will never be able understand what it is like to feel love, or pain, or grief. Also, in the short term, at least for customer service jobs, some people will want to speak to a human being rather than a robot. Eventually they will get used to robots but that may take some time. Finally, and I'm sure you've heard this point before, jobs are constantly being created and becoming obsolete with innovation. With the advent of the internet, writers of reference texts, encyclopedias, etc. have become more obsolete, but jobs that simply wouldn't have been possible without the internet, like web designers and certain small businesses, have been created and the idea of the mail order catalog (i.e. amazon), which existed for quite a while before the age of the internet have surged in popularity. Point is we don't know what the future will hold and just like how before the industrial revolution pretty much everyone was a ruler or a farmer, but afterwards people moved into more specialized professions, so too I believe that the job market will continue be strong despite automation, it will just be more specialized.
tl;dr unless measures are actually taken to prevent innovation it's either pull yourself up from your bootstraps and find a way to make it in the new world or be left behind
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