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Post Reply 73% Say Freedom of Speech Worth Dying For
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29 / M / St.Louis
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Posted 8/27/17 , edited 8/27/17
meh
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Posted 8/27/17 , edited 8/27/17

calebjohnson1854 wrote:

I am damned thankful to be an American at a time like this, what with all the social justice vs alt-right bullshit. I'm damned thankful that my Constitution was given a Bill of Rights that enshrined my freedom of speech and expression. I'm glad that I can speak my mind and find others sharing my views without being persecuted by tyranny.

I think that every modern nation ought to have a provision or amendment to the Constitution that permits all forms of free speech to be expressed without the violation of another person's rights, as well as the threat of government or societal crackdown.


I agree, but that doesn't seem to be the case. http://reason.com/blog/2017/08/25/germany-raids-shuts-down-far-left-websit

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Posted 8/27/17 , edited 8/27/17

calebjohnson1854 wrote:

I am damned thankful to be an American at a time like this, what with all the social justice vs alt-right bullshit. I'm damned thankful that my Constitution was given a Bill of Rights that enshrined my freedom of speech and expression. I'm glad that I can speak my mind and find others sharing my views without being persecuted by tyranny.

I think that every modern nation ought to have a provision or amendment to the Constitution that permits all forms of free speech to be expressed without the violation of another person's rights, as well as the threat of government or societal crackdown.


Yup, you want the right to be an butt, and the law to force everyone to take it.

Good luck, that doesn't even exist here.
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24 / M / Wales, UK
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Posted 8/27/17 , edited 8/27/17

runec wrote:


Rowan93 wrote:
Or, in other words, exceptions to free speech can be trusted as much as the government that gets that exception. One man's modus ponens is another man's modus tollens, and I prefer to extend as little trust as possible to thieves and murderers.


In other words, limitations of free speech are reached through legal testing and retesting in a court of law to form a body of precedent.


And by, like, laws that get passed. And not all legal systems are common law systems, so actually "laws that get passed" is the dominant thing overall.



Rowan93 wrote:
There's a difference between someone trying on some jackboots and publishing a list of reasons the holocaust never happened but totally should, and someone who gets on a soapbox to try to get an actual pogrom started. Between someone who thinks in an abstract way that a murderous regime wasn't wrong, and someone who actually wants to kill some people in the short term. That's the only place that makes sense to draw the distinction; any ideology can be characterised as murderous if the enemies of that ideology get into power.


I think Nazism is a pretty definitive example without any wriggle room. If you throw on that symbol you throw on everything it stands for. You can draw a distinction between really overt about it or not but the level of overt doesn't make you any less of a racist dickbag thats all for the death of Jews.


The difference between peacefully expressing a belief in an ideology that calls for certain people's deaths and actually trying to incite immediate violence is not simply the difference between being "overt about it or not".

The idea that someone should be free to express any beliefs as long as they do so peacefully is basically the entire concept of free speech and if you reject it for sufficiently dislikeable beliefs, you don't believe in free speech at all.



Rowan93 wrote:
Do you know what "doxxing" means?


Yes, I do. But you specifically said doxxing without breaking any laws. Which means someone was identified through publicly/legally available sources such as their public social media profiles.


Okay, here's an example that might be a bit off on the specifics but is way closer to what I'm talking about than just unprompted screaming about the Jews in front of your boss: disagreeing with someone's opinions on the minimum wage that they're foolish enough to express under their real name, and responding by digging through their blog to find the worst thing they've ever said, finding something easily misconstrued as anti-semitic, and emailing the company they work for demanding they fire the alleged Nazi.

It might be a stretch to accept that doing that makes one a bad person, but can you at least accept that those actions are censorious?
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Posted 8/27/17 , edited 8/27/17
More meh.
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19 / M
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Posted 8/27/17 , edited 8/27/17

Silentveil wrote:


calebjohnson1854 wrote:

I am damned thankful to be an American at a time like this, what with all the social justice vs alt-right bullshit. I'm damned thankful that my Constitution was given a Bill of Rights that enshrined my freedom of speech and expression. I'm glad that I can speak my mind and find others sharing my views without being persecuted by tyranny.

I think that every modern nation ought to have a provision or amendment to the Constitution that permits all forms of free speech to be expressed without the violation of another person's rights, as well as the threat of government or societal crackdown.


Yup, you want the right to be an butt, and the law to force everyone to take it.

Good luck, that doesn't even exist here.


If people don't want to hear what I have to say, they don't have to listen. But that doesn't mean I should be shut down for having opinions different from theirs. I'm not advocating for violence, nor am I inciting people to commit acts of terrorism or disturb the peace.
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Posted 8/27/17 , edited 8/27/17

calebjohnson1854 wrote:


Silentveil wrote:


calebjohnson1854 wrote:

I am damned thankful to be an American at a time like this, what with all the social justice vs alt-right bullshit. I'm damned thankful that my Constitution was given a Bill of Rights that enshrined my freedom of speech and expression. I'm glad that I can speak my mind and find others sharing my views without being persecuted by tyranny.

I think that every modern nation ought to have a provision or amendment to the Constitution that permits all forms of free speech to be expressed without the violation of another person's rights, as well as the threat of government or societal crackdown.


Yup, you want the right to be an butt, and the law to force everyone to take it.

Good luck, that doesn't even exist here.


If people don't want to hear what I have to say, they don't have to listen. But that doesn't mean I should be shut down for having opinions different from theirs. I'm not advocating for violence, nor am I inciting people to commit acts of terrorism or disturb the peace.


Wow, that is twisted logic.

If people don't want to hear what I have to say then they don't have to listen.

Yet, somehow you get to dictate how people chose not to listen to you?

Yup, I don't think you thought that through very well.



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Posted 8/27/17 , edited 8/27/17

Silentveil wrote:


calebjohnson1854 wrote:


Silentveil wrote:


calebjohnson1854 wrote:

I am damned thankful to be an American at a time like this, what with all the social justice vs alt-right bullshit. I'm damned thankful that my Constitution was given a Bill of Rights that enshrined my freedom of speech and expression. I'm glad that I can speak my mind and find others sharing my views without being persecuted by tyranny.

I think that every modern nation ought to have a provision or amendment to the Constitution that permits all forms of free speech to be expressed without the violation of another person's rights, as well as the threat of government or societal crackdown.


Yup, you want the right to be an butt, and the law to force everyone to take it.

Good luck, that doesn't even exist here.


If people don't want to hear what I have to say, they don't have to listen. But that doesn't mean I should be shut down for having opinions different from theirs. I'm not advocating for violence, nor am I inciting people to commit acts of terrorism or disturb the peace.


Wow, that is twisted logic.

If people don't want to hear what I have to say then they don't have to listen.

Yet, somehow you get to dictate how people chose not to listen to you?

Yup, I don't think you thought that through very well.





Allow me to elucidate my previous post. Let's say I'm a street preacher standing on a street corner, delivering a fire-and-brimstone speech about the penalty for sodomites and adulterers. You don't have to listen to me preach if you disagree with me, but I don't think I should be arrested or prohibited for expressing my beliefs.

That's all I'm going to say on the matter.
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Posted 8/27/17 , edited 8/27/17
i say what i want on a daily basis-- it's not free speech that is worth dying for. imo.

and forget free speech when you try to attack me or my family....

mxdan 
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Posted 8/27/17 , edited 8/27/17
Would need to read more about the polling methods of this site but I'd really take caution to it. Polls can fluctuate rapidly depending on several factors: demeanor, setting, and even time of day. That's not even looking at what the groups are and how they chose their areas to poll.

I mean really, how would you answer that question? Hell yeah? But how many actually mean that? What kind of setting and discussion would need to be established to actually get a direct and true answer to that question?
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Posted 8/27/17 , edited 8/27/17

calebjohnson1854 wrote:


Silentveil wrote:


calebjohnson1854 wrote:


Silentveil wrote:


calebjohnson1854 wrote:

I am damned thankful to be an American at a time like this, what with all the social justice vs alt-right bullshit. I'm damned thankful that my Constitution was given a Bill of Rights that enshrined my freedom of speech and expression. I'm glad that I can speak my mind and find others sharing my views without being persecuted by tyranny.

I think that every modern nation ought to have a provision or amendment to the Constitution that permits all forms of free speech to be expressed without the violation of another person's rights, as well as the threat of government or societal crackdown.


Yup, you want the right to be an butt, and the law to force everyone to take it.

Good luck, that doesn't even exist here.


If people don't want to hear what I have to say, they don't have to listen. But that doesn't mean I should be shut down for having opinions different from theirs. I'm not advocating for violence, nor am I inciting people to commit acts of terrorism or disturb the peace.


Wow, that is twisted logic.

If people don't want to hear what I have to say then they don't have to listen.

Yet, somehow you get to dictate how people chose not to listen to you?

Yup, I don't think you thought that through very well.





Allow me to elucidate my previous post. Let's say I'm a street preacher standing on a street corner, delivering a fire-and-brimstone speech about the penalty for sodomites and adulterers. You don't have to listen to me preach if you disagree with me, but I don't think I should be arrested or prohibited for expressing my beliefs.

That's all I'm going to say on the matter.


Wow, ...did you just say your piece and then run away?

Well let's see ...legally speaking if a preacher is doing that at a school and it's causing alarm in the citizens ...
he can be arrested for disturbing the peace

If that street corner is in front of a business and they don't want him there they can have him arrested or removed.
For loitering

Look, as long as he is doing it at the corner of his own home ...no one will stop him.
People will just avoid him, and that is his right ..on his property ..in his space.

He just doesn't have the right to go invade everyone's else space with his craziness, and if he does and people start shouting and yelling at him to go away or shut up...he shouldn't get mad, because they are exercising their freedom of speech.

Your rights aren't better than mine.
Somehow incase you missed it, ...if you want to talk crazy in your own space, no one will bother you.
If you want to talk crazy in my space, then ...you ask for what you get.
Ejanss 
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Posted 8/28/17 , edited 8/28/17

Rujikin wrote:

It seems there is still hope for the USA as we are still holding true to our core beliefs despite certain leftists willing to throw it all out to prevent offending <insert imaginary oppressed group>.


And despite certain rightists who couldn't correctly DEFINE the actual Constitutional text and context of the 1A if they had Final Jeopardy riding on it.

("It says right there, other people aren't allowed to laugh at me!"--Bzzt, sorry, thanks for playing, Carol has some lovely parting gifts for you and a copy of our home game....)
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Posted 8/28/17 , edited 8/28/17
Freedom of speech is nice, but also having a good grounds for having opinion is needed.
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