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Hitler
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Posted 4/4/07
Hitler wasn't born a Anti-Semite. During the after math of WWI, the German government need a scrape goat to take all the blame, and they chose the Jews.
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Posted 4/4/07
I really don´t believe Hitler to have been very intelligent, he just had drive and was at the right place in the right time, i mean with communists approaching from the west the all mayor-busynesses were eager to support him, also he was indeed a great spokesman and he was surrounded with incredibly smart people, but he made 3 mayor mistakes, he went against both the USA/GB(west) and Russia(east) at the same time thus surrounding himself with enemies. 2nd The Holocaust,´nuff said. 3rd He let the power go to his head and started doing things that he wasent trained to do, like commanding the entire army. He was a politician not a general, and he botched things up good in the end.

So in summery i don´t think of Hitler as a genius.
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Posted 4/4/07
Hitler was by no means insane. He was just an opportunist. He saw that Germany needed a saviour to rescue them from the depression after WWI and he took advantage of this. He had great leadership skills, his policies especially on economy were highly successful and Germany became a power that was envied by the rest of the European countries. The fact that he started WWII was because of his resent of the Treaty of Versailles and the way that Germany was immediately blamed as the cause of WWI. This resent was exactly the same all over Germany. So no Hitler was not insane or crazy. He was actually a pretty good leader. And don't go calling me Nazi because I said that.

oh and i agree with the points catex made above ^.
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Posted 4/4/07

lusulpher wrote:


kfreako wrote:

to me, he could be known as the evilest guy and racist. I heard that he killed plenty of jews o.o. i heard that he have a wife, i was like what the, how could a man like him got a woman love him?


Stalin killed 12 million people in his Siberian camps during his paranoia stage(compared to hitler's 6 and not counted the inefficient Russian forces casualties).



True, but you try getting a confession out of Russians, because if i´m not mistaken, then they are denying any such thing.
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Posted 4/4/07
I`ll just interviene on this conversation. Personaly Hitler was a misunderstood genius. hehe dont go insane and say he was a tyranical maniac. He just looked for perfection even though he knew that he could not be in that world. All the greatest rulers believed in the arian race (correct me if neccessary). Besides he didnt kill the jews, polish and, gypsy`s his followers did.
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Posted 4/4/07
^^ Russia has had nowhere near as long to come out of the throws of "communism"
However, as with everything, it depends upon whom you ask. Would you have been able to ask Anna Politkovskaya I'm sure she would not have denied it, neither would Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn.
And, of course, there are still people who deny the holocaust!
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Posted 4/4/07

animoo_x wrote:

Hitler was by no means insane. He was just an opportunist. He saw that Germany needed a saviour to rescue them from the depression after WWI and he took advantage of this. He had great leadership skills, his policies especially on economy were highly successful and Germany became a power that was envied by the rest of the European countries. The fact that he started WWII was because of his resent of the Treaty of Versailles and the way that Germany was immediately blamed as the cause of WWI. This resent was exactly the same all over Germany. So no Hitler was not insane or crazy. He was actually a pretty good leader. And don't go calling me Nazi because I said that.

oh and i agree with the points catex made above ^.


She has a good point. I don`t think he was insane but he did not think much of human life.

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Posted 4/4/07
^^yes,but i think its more about how a country deals with its history,
germany still has to make things up,look at the german-poland conflict.
but in other countries its just the past or even worse it gets gloryfied.
like the japanese and the russians,they dont grow up,learning every day
that their country did bad stuff.but here in germany its different.
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Posted 4/4/07
^^ umm... "not thinking much of human life" is often referred to as "Antisocial Personality Disorder" and is what a large number of serial killers are diagnosed with. I believe that wanting to kill someone for "no good reason" is insanity.

He is also abnormal (he deviated a long way from the "norm" of society at the time) and was therefore psychologically messed up in some way.

Yes, he was a good leader, but that doesn't make him sane... sanity is relative to what human society considers "normal" and Adolf was in no way normal. Despite being able to make great speeches, he was useless in one to one conversation and stuttered. It could be due to his unbringing, quite possibly, but that doesn't make him sane for turning out that way.

Maybe he was trying to make Germany look good, but then why did he have to try a revolution in Bavaria?
Yes he did revive the economy, but did he have to then go and "murder" millions by proxy?
He could have succeeded in his dream in a much more sensible way, but he was insane, not being able to thing logically is the "Rational-Emotive Therapy" definition of being insane.

Having diagnosed Hitler as insane in 3 different ways I feel that the case is closed.

@ arano - Russia has not been pressured as greatly by "Western Powers" to re-think its attitude towards the Gulags, and Japan, having become a pacifist country has been allowed to jump the rules a bit.
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Posted 4/4/07
Winston Churchill
"a maniac of ferocious genius, the repository and expression of the most virulent hatreds that have ever corroded the human breast—Corporal Hitler."
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Posted 4/4/07

mauz15 wrote:


sheighton wrote:

[EDIT:] Sorry for the double post of the same thing...Can a mod delete this post please?

Um, where did my two posts that preceded this one go???


Fine, fine mauz but this is a serious pain...Anyways...


keelo wrote:

sure Hitler was a dictator, a racist, a murderer, a hater of jews, and many other things; but, was he crazy? He alone sought to unify all of europe under German rule. Why did Hitler lose WWII? was it because he became to arrogant or selfish. Discuss this man's sanity, his tactics, and the dream that had as much beneficial things as it did negative things.


Was Hitler crazy, well I don't think so, at least not in the beginning of his career...A brilliant politician and statesman, a orator with almost no equal, at times a great strategist; Hitler was what the people of Germany desired and one could even say needed after WWI. He was the type of man that was bound to rise to power eventually; fated to do so, one could say.

Debates on this subject actually intrigue me quite a bit and well to bring a few example into play I will use some philosophy and a brilliant anime that I am currently watching; Death Note. Essentially these debates always, or at least always should, center around the fight within oneself over one's ideals and the changes within oneself once one has gained power. It is a battle between light and darkness within a person's mind, within their personality, within their soul. A battle between their Freudian Id and Ego, moderated and observed by the Super-Ego. In Death Note, we can see this battle if we assign Light as the Id, L as the Ego, and Ryuuk as the Super-Ego. Essentially the Id is driven by more basic and primal intentions, which in and of themselves is not necessarily a bad thing, rather it is usually just the implementation that goes awry. L, as the Ego, is more like the conscious, driven by morality and thus juxtaposed with the Id. The Super-Ego is what keeps the two in check either directly or indirectly, usually tending to interfere as little as possible. This now brings me to what happens when you add the gaining of power/influence to the equation, and thus brings me to two very famous aphorisms.

Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
-Lord Acton

Anyone who fights with monsters should make sure that he does not in the process become a monster himself. And when you look for a long time into the abyss, the abyss also looks into you.
-Friedrich Nietzsche

Essentially as one fights what they see as evil, the abyss, the opposite of their ideals, they become the very thing that they hate most. That is what has happened to Light in Death Note, and that is what happened to Hitler and others like him.


henz_lan wrote:

^^ umm... "not thinking much of human life" is often referred to as "Antisocial Personality Disorder" and is what a large number of serial killers are diagnosed with. I believe that wanting to kill someone for "no good reason" is insanity.

He is also abnormal (he deviated a long way from the "norm" of society at the time) and was therefore psychologically messed up in some way.

Yes, he was a good leader, but that doesn't make him sane... sanity is relative to what human society considers "normal" and Adolf was in no way normal. Despite being able to make great speeches, he was useless in one to one conversation and stuttered. It could be due to his upbringing, quite possibly, but that doesn't make him sane for turning out that way.

Maybe he was trying to make Germany look good, but then why did he have to try a revolution in Bavaria?
Yes he did revive the economy, but did he have to then go and "murder" millions by proxy?
He could have succeeded in his dream in a much more sensible way, but he was insane, not being able to thing logically is the "Rational-Emotive Therapy" definition of being insane.

Having diagnosed Hitler as insane in 3 different ways I feel that the case is closed.

@ arano - Russia has not been pressured as greatly by "Western Powers" to re-think its attitude towards the Gulags, and Japan, having become a pacifist country has been allowed to jump the rules a bit.


Well you seem to be close but not quite right, for example, Hitler did not intend to originally carry out anything similar to the Holocaust, let alone anything on that scale, that was Heinrich Himmler's idea. Hitler had originally intended merely to relocate groups such as the Jews (an idea the British adopted post-WWII ---> optional relocation to Israel; Hitler had suggested using Madagascar as a relocation site) in addition to sterilization (a flawed idea within Eugenics ---> Genetic Engineering would be the ethical route); his last resort was extermination.

Anyways, to help the rest of you out, here is a paper that I wrote on a similar topic last year...

A Social Analysis of Life in Nazi Germany

Life in Nazi Germany showed us both some of the best and worst of what we are all capable of under the right conditions. Born out of the Depression and failure of the Weimar Republic, the Third Reich was the embodiment of the German people’s dream of a better future. Yet how could a system that was apparently so bright and optimistic, providing new opportunities for its people and creating an economic miracle in a time of the Great Depression, become so horribly twisted and go so wrong? The answers to this question lie underneath the surface in the twisted Nazi ideologies and the coercion of the German people through means such as propaganda and the Hitler myth. It was the National Socialist party’s brilliant use of coercion and winning of public opinion that brought them to power and helped them to maintain that power until their defeat at the hands of the Allies in World War II.

In order to understand why the Nazi party came to rule German politics from 1933 to 1945, one needs to understand the situation in Germany under the control of the Weimar Republic after World War I, as this largely determined to the role that the ‘ordinary German’ would play in the Nazi rise to power. It was during the Weimar years that conditions for the rise of fascism brewed in Germany, yet one cannot fully blame the Weimar Republic for this; rather it was more of a result of discontent with Germany’s defeat in World War I, the Treaty of Versailles, and the economic crisis of the early 1920’s and early 1930’s. These spans of economic depression in Germany saw hyperinflation and rampant unemployment, greatly to the distress of the German people. This unrest within the German people led to the blaming of the Republic for Germany’s problems and to a rebellious nature within the unemployed of the younger generation, many of whom became attracted by the SA and its offer of food, shelter, and a wage. Yet, even more importantly than just winning over the younger generation with the SA, the Nazis’ promise to bring about an economic revival to Germany and universal employment were particularly important factors that won the sympathy of many for the Nazis. The promise of economic revival gave hope to the upper and middle classes longing to return to the old days of Germany’s economic prestige, while the promise of universal employment won the support of the unemployed who might have otherwise sided with the Socialists and/or Communists. It was also this sympathy for the party and the willingness of the people to turn a blind eye that kept support for the party high until 1941/2, when the war started to go badly for Germany.

Now saying that the ‘ordinary’ Germans all supported the National Socialists’ rise to power is not entirely true. In the beginning, there was opposition from a variety of sources, including the German Communist Party, the Social Democratic Party (SPD) and the Weimar Republic, but as time went on the Nazis found one way or another to either win over their opposition or to eliminate them as a viable threat to their power. For example, after coming to power in 1933 the Nazis began a campaign against the Left that used the SA and street violence to drive first the German Communist Party and then the Social Democratic Party underground and to the brink of extinction. It was the Nazis’ use of both ‘legal’ and illegal violence that would keep those who might have opposed them in check through fear. Yet, the Beer Hall Putsch in 1923 had taught the party leadership, especially Hitler, that the use of direct methods, such as openly supported violence, is not always the best means to the goal. In the case of the Beer Hall Putsch, direct confrontation failed because the National Socialists neither possessed the backing of the state with its military and police, nor did they possess the support of the majority within the population. It is important to note though that despite failing to seize power Hitler would still gain a celebrity status during his trial and through his writing of Mein Kampf; in a sense, despite failing as a coup de tat the Beer Hall Putsch succeeded in furthering the Hitler myth. The Hitler myth, along with Hitler’s ‘socialist’ goals of economic and social reform, and his goal to turn Germany into a world power once more, helped to win the support of both the people and the state. The Beer Hall Putsch attempt by the Nazis to seize power was premature because of that factor, but as we can see the party leadership learned from it and the next time that they attempted to gain control they succeeded by going through the system and using it to their advantage.

Another form of control that enabled the Third Reich to remain in power was the creation of the Hitler Youth, an organization with the sole purpose to indoctrinate citizens with Nazi ideology and beliefs since their childhood. Ordinary Germans were thus turned into fanatical party members. Even before the Hitler Youth, the Nazi Party was able to attract a large fanatical base, in the form of the SA, “due to their success in building upon mainstream social values.” (Bessel 13) After the Left had been subdued in 1933 and the SA had become more of a hindrance than a help the Nazi leadership showed another trait that was such an integral part of their system with the Bloody Purge in 1934. This showed a willingness to even get rid of ‘obstacles’ within their own party, even if they had been instrumental in the past. Furthermore, the Bloody Purge brought the military and the SS to the front and this would be instrumental in the persecution and victimization of anyone who did not conform to the party’s ideologies.

Jews, gypsies, the physically and mentally impaired, political dissidents, POW’s; they were all victims of the Nazi terror campaign that was carried out by the SS. Yet this system of incarceration and mass murder on such a grand scale was not just some whimsical sequence of events designed by the party leadership rather, the base for it existed not just within the Nazi party, but within the German people themselves. Since the Nazi regime had always preached to the popular Anti-Semitism, xenophobia, anti-Feminism, and Eugenic beliefs that were held by many Germans they could slowly increase the severity of the measures to ‘deal’ with those who either fell into one of the categories or who did not conform to the party’s political ideology. Furthermore, any questions and/or qualms that the people might have had usually were written off by non-belief or went unvoiced due to their fear of the state. William Carr put it perfectly in his essay, “Nazi Policy Against The Jews” when he said,

Above all, one must not forget that a dictatorship gradually corrupts the moral fiber of it of its citizens: to ask too many questions, let alone protest, was to risk arrest and possibly death. (Bessel 81)

Under the Nazi system you were forced to conform, either by your own free will or by being broken by the system. If compliance was deemed impossible, then the ‘threat to society’ was eliminated. For example, compliance by choice was what largely applied to women in Nazi Germany who believed in helping the men achieve a better future so they were willing to subordinate themselves to traditional roles such as housewife, while groups such as gypsies, Jews, those deemed hazardous to the Aryan bloodline, and political dissidents, i.e. ‘threats to society’ were eliminated.

The people of Germany followed their Nazi regime through a time of great prosperity and through a time of war and mass murder. They were all too willing to accept what they were told in the press and propaganda largely due to their belief in Hitler because of the Hitler myth, the improved economy and standard of living that the regime had provided them with, and also due to their fear of the state. The state’s free reign was a result of providing ‘bread and circuses’ for the people, playing to the people’s desires, controlling what they saw in the media, and providing victories both on the home front and abroad. Thus, while the Third Reich was characterized by violence and manipulation, life for individuals did not suffer as long as they conformed to the system. As proof of this, the improvements in the life of the average German, economic resurgence, and the advancements brought about by pre-war Nazi Germany would not be equaled again until the late 1950’s in West Germany. So in short, the Third Reich achieved some good, but it did so only through a twisted system of manipulation and murder that caused a large number of the people under its rule to live in fear, while others enjoyed the benefits brought about by the achievements of the regime.

Reference used: Life In The Third Reich by Richard Bessel
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@sheighton:
Yeah sorry about that, I sounded a bit rude. It was not my intention.

I want the source(s) of your posts btw

Edit to below: Thanks
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Just added my source for the paper...Well the other source was my lecture notes, but that is not something that gets taken into account in those things...As for the rest of it, well I have compiled a list of my favorite aphorisms on my computer.

Oh and mauz, if you are wondering what the paper was for, it was for my 20th Century Europe class (Note: I am a history major)...
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xidiya wrote:

Hitler was NOT crazy, he was EVIL.

Also, I disagree w/ sheighton. Hitler didn't become evil b/c he supposedly fought against what he saw as "evil". The man was just plain evil, period.


And you have absolutely no grounds on which to make that claim...In truth Hitler most likely began as a man only with his goals and ideals, most of which were not even close to being evil in and of themselves, but then as he progressed, gaining more and more power, he became more and more possessed by his power and thus became more and more inclined to evil. If you still disagree with me, then disagree and provide facts (which at this point you have presented none, only opinion)...My conclusions have all been drawn logically from fact, philosophy, ect. How about your's? Hmm?


n0odle wrote:


xidiya wrote:

Hitler was NOT crazy, he was EVIL.

Also, I disagree w/ sheighton. Hitler didn't become evil b/c he supposedly fought against what he saw as "evil". The man was just plain evil, period.


No one person is born "plain evil". You're an idiot.



A wise, yet unnecessarily aggressive statement that is...


n0odle wrote:

Germany lost WWII because British radar pwned their planes and their failed attack on Stanlingard exhausted their resources. And they got owned by D-Day.


Yes and no...They lost for really three main reasons:
1. Strategy ---> North Africa, Stalingrad, D-Day, Battle of the Bulge; Allied bombing of German industry
2. Production ---> The Allies, among them most notably the United States, were capable of producing far more than Germany could
3. Lack of Control over the Sea

I would put RADAR down at #4 or #5...
Posted 4/4/07

n0odle wrote:


xidiya wrote:

Hitler was NOT crazy, he was EVIL.

Also, I disagree w/ sheighton. Hitler didn't become evil b/c he supposedly fought against what he saw as "evil". The man was just plain evil, period.


No one person is born "plain evil". You're an idiot.



No where in my statement did I say he was "born" that way. He may not have been born that way but that is what he was in the end. Of course, if you think the Holocaust isn't evil but 'good' then whatever I say would be a waste of time.

Also, in response to sheighton. No political, economic, or social situation justifies committing evil. The Holocaust was evil. I never said he didn't begin w/ ideals, I only disagree w/ you in that you think that his fight for his ideals and rise to power can somehow justify or make sense of his crimes.

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