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Post Reply Andromeda dev chalks up some of the game's problems to a lack of diversity
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Posted 10/23/17 , edited 10/23/17


1. True, dont disagree.
2. Cant say that i agree here. I mean recent in Australia as far as we (white people) were only here 220-230 years ago.
I cant agree with you there myself at all. I have had many European friends over the years and in all honesty i can relate to them way more tha Aboriginal people.
I've gotten to know some Africans and none of them like hip hop so i cant relate to them either ^^;
I've never met a white American once in my life. So i dont know if i can relate to them. But i can relate to Americans as far as culture because of how Americanised this country is as far as music and television and film.
But i think there is some Anti American feelings held by everyone all around the world so we all can relate to that.
3. I dont know much about that. I find it hard to believe but i wont disregard it seeing as i dont know. Of course through listening to hip hop all my life(well most) i know that the ghetto's are thought to have been designed for black people to fail and be trapped.
4. To suggest that we should all get along based solely on skin colour rather than on personality and behaviour would be ludicrous.


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Posted 10/23/17 , edited 10/24/17

MrAnimeSK wrote:
That really fed the whole suggestion that they purposely made most of the females unattractive, to appease to feminists.




Yennifer was suppose to be a supernaturally attractive sorceress.
Sera was suppose to be a crazy elf woman that slinks around back alleys.

Try it again but with Morrigan, a character who is suppose to be a similar archtype:




and Tamara, a character who is not:




Both sensuality and ugliness ( and damn can the Witcher folk make some hideous characters ) are key components of the Witcher as a series. I mean we're talking about a series which once featured collectible cards for porking every random woman you could talk into bed with you.

Dragon Age, not so much. Mass Effect, definitely not. Also, lets be honest here, Bioware's 3d character work has always been rough around the edges for males and females. While I love the Mass Effect series ( and even enjoyed Andromeda ) the foremost challenge of all 4 games was making it out of the character creator with something that didn't look like a terrifying meat puppet the moment it started talking in a cut scene.

And for the record, Andromeda's foremost problem is it had the misfortune of having EA as a publisher. EA mandated that everyone use the Frostbyte engine whether they like it or not regardless of whether the engine was even designed to handle the kind of game they were making. This resulted in Bioware having to build both Inquisition and Andromeda from the ground up. As Frostbyte doesn't do RPG anything.

That extra development time and difficulties shows in both games.
mxdan 
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Posted 10/23/17 , edited 10/24/17

runec wrote:


MrAnimeSK wrote:
That really fed the whole suggestion that they purposely made most of the females unattractive, to appease to feminists.




Yennifer was suppose to be a supernaturally attractive sorceress.
Sera was suppose to be a crazy elf woman that slinks around back alleys.

Try it again but with Morrigan, a character who is suppose to be a similar archtype:


and Tamara, a character who is not:



Both sensuality and ugliness ( and damn can the Witcher folk make some hideous characters ) are key components of the Witcher as a series. I mean we're talking about a series which once featured collectible cards for porking every random woman you could talk into bed with you.

Dragon Age, not so much. Mass Effect, definitely not. Also, lets be honest here, Bioware's 3d character work has always been rough around the edges for males and females. While I love the Mass Effect series ( and even enjoyed Andromeda ) the foremost challenge of all 4 games was making it out of the character creator with something that didn't look like a terrifying meat puppet the moment it started talking in a cut scene.

And for the record, Andromeda's foremost problem is it had the misfortune of having EA as a publisher. EA mandated that everyone use the Frostbyte engine whether they like it or not regardless of whether the engine was even designed to handle the kind of game they were making. This resulted in Bioware having to build both Inquisition and Andromeda from the ground up. As Frostbyte doesn't do RPG anything.

That extra development time and difficulties shows in both games.


EA somehow takes something that should be enjoyable and driven by the love for the medium and the fans and turns it into a boring mess.

With the exception of Dead Space and Mass Effect I don't understand how their games get people to buy in.

Also, +1 for the Witcher comments.
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Posted 10/24/17 , edited 10/24/17

mxdan wrote:



With the exception of Dead Space and Mass Effect


Not mentioning Battlefield games, for shame!
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Posted 10/24/17 , edited 10/25/17
For the record, the frost bite engine is friccing amazing. It is for FPS games anyhow. Sera was very cheeky though, acted flirty(well only likes girls) but cheeky and naughty, still had sex appeal. Even with that gutter English trashy style accent. And being a thief who "slinks around back alleys".
I dont recall any ugly characters in the Witcher but i never played 1 and 2. I mean you did have old ladies and witches and stuff. But i cant really remember. I guess because there are so many beautiful characters that stand out, unlike Andromeda and Inquisition.
Dragon Age Inquisition is one of my favourite games ever, despite the lack of beautiful love interests and having a transgender in it.

But yeah i love the Frostbite engine and Battlefield. But EA(well them and Dice) are doing a good job of ruining Battlefield
Still the best FPS series out though.
runec 
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Posted 10/24/17 , edited 10/24/17

mxdan wrote:
EA somehow takes something that should be enjoyable and driven by the love for the medium and the fans and turns it into a boring mess.

With the exception of Dead Space and Mass Effect I don't understand how their games get people to buy in.

Also, +1 for the Witcher comments.


EA likes their "Games as a Service" microtransaction bullshit. That's what led to the hot mess that was Dead Space 3 and on a side note EA killed the studio that made Dead Space last week. In their usual "Buy good studio, ruin its franchise with micromanagement, blame studio and shut it down" pattern.



MrAnimeSK wrote:
For the record, the frost bite engine is fringing amazing. It is for FPS games anyhow. Sera was very cheeky though, acted flirty(well only likes girls) but cheeky and naughty, still had sex appeal. Even with that gutter English trashy style accent. And being a thief who "slinks around back alleys".
I dont recall any ugly characters in the Witcher but i never played 1 and 2. I mean you did have old ladies and witches and stuff. But i cant really remember. I guess because there are so many beautiful characters that stand out, unlike Andromeda and Inquisition.
Dragon Age Inquisition is one of my favourite games ever, despite the lack of beautiful love interests and having a transgender in it.

But yeah i love the Frostbite engine and Battlefield. But EA(well them and Dice) are doing a good job of ruining Battlefield
Still the best FPS series out though.


Frostbyte is fantastic doing what it was designed for, yeah. But when you need to add a dialogue/camera/animation system, character sheets, skills, etc you have to build that from the ground up on an engine not designed to do it. Mass Effect was doing just fine on the Unreal Engine for 1-3 as the Unreal Engine is super flexible. Inquisition could have been built on the Unreal Engine much easier as well. Forcing a change to Frostbyte probably added an extra year of development just trying to make it support the game type to begin with.

Really? The Witcher games are awash in ugliness. Ugliness is part of the art direction and feel of the world. The foremost "beautiful characters" were all sorceresses. Who in the lore of the Witcher books were suppose to have a supernatural beauty to them. Outside of them things get quite a bit more brutally realistic. No one does frumpy villagers quite like the Witcher.

And yeah, I think you'll find said beauty a tad more rough in Witcher 1 and 2. Even 3 came out a year after Inquisition so it has a technological leg up.
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Posted 10/24/17 , edited 10/24/17

runec wrote:


mxdan wrote:
EA somehow takes something that should be enjoyable and driven by the love for the medium and the fans and turns it into a boring mess.

With the exception of Dead Space and Mass Effect I don't understand how their games get people to buy in.

Also, +1 for the Witcher comments.


EA likes their "Games as a Service" microtransaction bullshit. That's what led to the hot mess that was Dead Space 3 and on a side note EA killed the studio that made Dead Space last week. In their usual "Buy good studio, ruin its franchise with micromanagement, blame studio and shut it down" pattern.



Seriously? That's some bullshit man. How many great studios has EA killed now? The way they run their company doesn't translate into good games. And yet they still turn a profit because of the huge casual market that can't wait for NBA/NFL/MLB 798... Even though it's essentially the same game every year with a couple more polygons and different athletes. They barely have to spend any money developing these games and instantly turn a profit. It's soulless game production. And this is coming from someone who actually enjoys watching the NBA.

A quick rundown of the studios EA has killed that I found:

https://heavy.com/games/2017/10/studios-ea-has-killed-visceral-games/


runec wrote:

Frostbyte is fantastic doing what it was designed for, yeah. But when you need to add a dialogue/camera/animation system, character sheets, skills, etc you have to build that from the ground up on an engine not designed to do it. Mass Effect was doing just fine on the Unreal Engine for 1-3 as the Unreal Engine is super flexible. Inquisition could have been built on the Unreal Engine much easier as well. Forcing a change to Frostbyte probably added an extra year of development just trying to make it support the game type to begin with.


Yeah, my roommate and I talk about this all the time. I'd of much rather of had another Mass Effect game with the same tech and direction but new worlds, races, story, etc. because that is what drives the intrigue in Mass Effect in my opinion. When the elements are half-assed it just sort of feels hallow.

The fact that no one at BioWare is aware of what makes the game great means that either A) It was out of their hands and they had to do what EA wanted of them and new that there was something lacking. or B ) EA has gutted the team down to an assembly line.
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Posted 10/24/17 , edited 10/24/17

mxdan wrote:


runec wrote:


mxdan wrote:
EA somehow takes something that should be enjoyable and driven by the love for the medium and the fans and turns it into a boring mess.

With the exception of Dead Space and Mass Effect I don't understand how their games get people to buy in.

Also, +1 for the Witcher comments.


EA likes their "Games as a Service" microtransaction bullshit. That's what led to the hot mess that was Dead Space 3 and on a side note EA killed the studio that made Dead Space last week. In their usual "Buy good studio, ruin its franchise with micromanagement, blame studio and shut it down" pattern.



Seriously? That's some bullshit man. How many great studios has EA killed now? The way they run their company doesn't translate into good games. And yet they still turn a profit because of all these mouth breathers who can't wait for NBA/NFL/MLB 798... Even though it's essentially the same game every year with a couple more polygons and different athletes. They barely have to spend any money developing these games and instantly turn a profit. It's soulless game production. And this is coming from someone who actually enjoys watching the NBA.

A quick rundown of the studios EA has killed that I found:

https://heavy.com/games/2017/10/studios-ea-has-killed-visceral-games/



My only question is how much longer until PopCap gets shut down.
mxdan 
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Posted 10/24/17 , edited 10/24/17

octorockandroll wrote:

My only question is how much longer until PopCap gets shut down.


Unfortunately they make games that are cheap to develop and turn a high profit, so, they will probably exist as long as EA does >_>.

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Posted 10/24/17 , edited 10/24/17

mxdan wrote:


octorockandroll wrote:

My only question is how much longer until PopCap gets shut down.


Unfortunately they make games that are cheap to develop and turn a high profit, so, they will probably exist as long as EA does >_>.



Well they did also make the PvZ: Garden Warfare series, which were two so called "AAA" games which people were never particularly hyped about and that usually indicates a loss in the minds of EA heads.
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Posted 10/24/17 , edited 10/24/17

mxdan wrote:
Seriously? That's some bullshit man. How many great studios has EA killed now? The way they run their company doesn't translate into good games. And yet they still turn a profit because of the huge casual market that can't wait for NBA/NFL/MLB 798... Even though it's essentially the same game every year with a couple more polygons and different athletes. They barely have to spend any money developing these games and instantly turn a profit. It's soulless game production. And this is coming from someone who actually enjoys watching the NBA.

A quick rundown of the studios EA has killed that I found:

https://heavy.com/games/2017/10/studios-ea-has-killed-visceral-games/


I still haven't forgiven them for Westwood and Bullfrog. And especially for resurrecting the corpse of Dungeon Keeper into that mobile game abomination.



mxdan wrote:
Yeah, my roommate and I talk about this all the time. I'd of much rather of had another Mass Effect game with the same tech and direction but new worlds, races, story, etc. because that is what drives the intrigue in Mass Effect in my opinion. When the elements are half-assed it just sort of feels hallow.

The fact that no one at BioWare is aware of what makes the game great means that either A) It was out of their hands and they had to do what EA wanted of them and new that there was something lacking. or B ) EA has gutted the team down to an assembly line.


From what I hear from inside the industry, EA are horrific micromanagers ( and prior to that they were deplorable employers ). They force microtransactions and online components/multiplayer into basically everything regardless of whether it makes sense. In addition to forcing their studios to use specific tech like Frostbyte instead of whatever is best for the project. EA bought DICE remember, so they own the Frosbyte engine and they made it exclusive to themselves in doing so. While forcing it on their studios as a standardized engine. All of their sports games are being moved to a singular engine ( Ignite ) and everything else was forced onto Frostbyte.

Inquisition and especially Andromeda show the affect this meddling has even on well established studios. Bioware developed its own property RPG engine ( Eclipse ) which was intended to carry the series. It was used for DA1 and 2. Then EA forced them over to Frostbyte ( Fun fact: DA2 had an expansion but EA forcing them to change to the Frostbyte engine blew it up and they had to cancel it ).

It's hard to develop a solid game *and* have to build all of the technology again from the ground up with a project deadline you were given that doesn't allow for it. Most of the rough edges in Inquisition and Andromeda had to do with character models and animation since the Frostbyte engine doesn't do pesky things like cut scenes, dialogue and intricate facial animation.

Kind of hard for your artists to work when you haven't finished making the canvas and paintbrush yet.

Basically, they set their own studios up for failure then blame them for that failure. Andromeda may not have been amazing but it was a solid base that going forward with DLC expansions and a sequel could have really built upon. Instead they killed EA Montreal, cancelled all plans for DLC and shelved Mass Effect entirely. Because Andromeda didn't meet the expectations of EA. That expectation, I assume, is that they could push anything out the door before it was finished with the Mass Effect name on it and rake in the money. Then fix it later.







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Posted 10/24/17 , edited 10/24/17

runec wrote:


mxdan wrote:
Seriously? That's some bullshit man. How many great studios has EA killed now? The way they run their company doesn't translate into good games. And yet they still turn a profit because of the huge casual market that can't wait for NBA/NFL/MLB 798... Even though it's essentially the same game every year with a couple more polygons and different athletes. They barely have to spend any money developing these games and instantly turn a profit. It's soulless game production. And this is coming from someone who actually enjoys watching the NBA.

A quick rundown of the studios EA has killed that I found:

https://heavy.com/games/2017/10/studios-ea-has-killed-visceral-games/


I still haven't forgiven them for Westwood and Bullfrog. And especially for resurrecting the corpse of Dungeon Keeper into that mobile game abomination.




Let's not forget the shit they did to Maxis.
mxdan 
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Posted 10/24/17 , edited 10/24/17

runec wrote:

Kind of hard for your artists to work when you haven't finished making the canvas and paintbrush yet.

Basically, they set their own studios up for failure then blame them for that failure. Andromeda may not have been amazing but it was a solid base that going forward with DLC expansions and a sequel could have really built upon. Instead they killed EA Montreal, cancelled all plans for DLC and shelved Mass Effect entirely. Because Andromeda didn't meet the expectations of EA. That expectation, I assume, is that they could push anything out the door before it was finished with the Mass Effect name on it and rake in the money. Then fix it later.



Yeah, geez, that shows a serious lack of understanding of how games 'work' from the top down. It's like they want to become this monolith of a company without actually having intricate knowledge of how games function. To me at least this is a sign that perhaps they don't understand gamers. They think of us as consumers without a relationship with the things we play. Had EA of known that what their general base wanted out of Mass Effect was the elements that make a great space soap opera and the investment into that as a consumer I doubt they would of made both elements weaker by trying to be all inclusive with everything from the get go.

It feels like they get a formula right in one genre of game and try to apply it to every game. I don't play Battlefront (Well, I personally don't play it period) for the same reasons that I play Mass Effect. Those are two entirely different markets. And yet they pushed it like we were all the same.

Still though, I got to hand it to Bioware for salvaging what they could. I still enjoyed the worlds in general in the game. Though I found myself on more than one occasion laughing at the horrendous dialogue and animations. It wasn't a bad game, it just didn't have the same weight and feel that ME1/2 had... And the Quarians... Which were my favorite race -_-.
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Posted 10/24/17 , edited 10/24/17

Omni42 wrote:

That's a dumb statement. Consistency in and of itself is neither good nor bad. Certainly not a virtue.



Consistency is considered virtue in the classical school of thought for developing character. Without consistency, all efforts at self improvement are fleeting and ultimately futile.
runec 
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Posted 10/24/17 , edited 10/24/17

mxdan wrote:
Yeah, geez, that shows a serious lack of understanding of how games 'work' from the top down. It's like they want to become this monolith of a company without actually having intricate knowledge of how games function. To me at least this is a sign that perhaps they don't understand gamers. They think of us as consumers without a relationship with the things we play. Had EA of known that what their general base wanted out of Mass Effect was the elements that make a great space soap opera and the investment into that as a consumer I doubt they would of made both elements weaker by trying to be all inclusive with everything from the get go.

It feels like they get a formula right in one genre of game and try to apply it to every game. I don't play Battlefront (Well, I personally don't play it period) for the same reasons that I play Mass Effect. Those are two entirely different markets. And yet they pushed it like we were all the same.

Still though, I got to hand it to Bioware for salvaging what they could. I still enjoyed the worlds in general in the game. Though I found myself on more than one occasion laughing at the horrendous dialogue and animations. It wasn't a bad game, it just didn't have the same weight and feel that ME1/2 had... And the Quarians... Which were my favorite race -_-.


They're less interested in how games work than how games generate money. Hence Dragon Age getting loot boxes and multiplayer out of no where when the series was a single player RPG. ME3's multiplayer was well received so in true EA logic they want "Every game must now have this." and in it went with Inquisition. Same reason Dead Space went from a tense single player horror game to a co-op multiplayer action game. Or Maxis went from a single player simulation game to an always online multiplayer game.

Ditto on the Quarians. That's why I was doubly irked by them shutting down EA Montreal. The first DLC was going to be the arrival of the Quarian Ark ( which also had the volus, elcore, drell, etc ) which would have fleshed out Andromeda. I mean, Andromeda ( and to a lesser degree, Inquisition ) main problem was not enough time allowed to finish the game before it went out the door. Say what you will about the rough edges and occasional goofy writing but Andromeda's gameplay was rock solid. With some more post release polish and DLCs it could have shaped up into something great.

I mean, Bioware has brought some great stuff to ME and DA with expansions. ( See Shadowbroker or Trespasser ). They spent all that extra time making Bioware build a whole mew framework for a new ME series out of Frostbyte. Then they tossed it all away because they made them push it out the door too early and it didn't shower them with as much money as they wanted. Now all the work they did building the technology on Frostbyte for ME is just going to rot on a hard disk somewhere. Till they dust it off and try to sloppily apply it to some other stupid idea they had.

Probably by tossing it to an unrelated studio with no experience working with it then telling them to make something in 2 years that should take 3. Then blaming that studio when they can't do the impossible and shutting them down. -.-


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