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Post Reply Defending the liberal world order
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Posted 11/26/17 , edited 11/26/17
http://www.theworldin.com/edition/2018/article/14416/defending-liberal-world-order


Leaders of the post-war era had seen the breakdown of the world order. They saw open markets give way to protectionism and poverty. They saw ethnic and nationalist passions give way to violence and misery. They saw the brutal ambition of hostile great powers give way to war and genocide. In the aftermath of that tragic era, those leaders forged a liberal world order that ushered in an unprecedented era of stability, security and prosperity.

This new order rejected the principles that led to the failure of its predecessor. It was based not on ethno-nationalism, spheres of influence and might-makes-right imperialism, but rather on universal values, human rights, rule of law, open commerce and national sovereignty. This liberal order was not an accident. It was the result of vigorous, tireless efforts to advance, defend and preserve the values that provided its foundation.


Right. So this is a piece from John McCain. Republican senator from Arizona, chairman or the Armed Services committee, 2008 presidential nominee, former POW.

He's a clever guy that knows "liberal" is a instant trigger and byword for evil in the lexicon of average conservative, or the very people that voted him into office.

He's pointed out his disdain for conservative radio and tv hosts. And again makes a passing reference to the press in this piece.

The point he's making is he wants to preserve the globalist status quo and reject the days of emperors, tsars and kings. So he's not gunning for a reduction in the military, repealing the second amendment, banning of fossil fuels and free healthcare your average liberal wants.

So frankly I figure this to be some high level, tongue-in-cheek, titled for clicks trolling. But in a way to get as many people reading his thoughts on a issue that is very important to him. It's definitely combative though. Painting one side as bad and his side as good. So it's definitely not like Bernie's attempt to remove the negative connotation from socialism. This is McCain rallying a base that doesn't vote for him, or rather can't vote for him.

That said if McCain survives his cancer his political career won't survive these latest shows of his "Maverick"-ness. So I'm half expecting a party switch or retirement announcement.
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Posted 11/26/17 , edited 11/26/17
This sounds very much like a takedown of Trump-ism...
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Posted 11/26/17 , edited 11/26/17
It's all Hegelian dialectics to me. Humanity only makes progress by going from one extreme to another.
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Posted 11/26/17 , edited 11/26/17
i though he said he will not be running after this term-- I can't remember which local channel it was on (ABC15, AZFAMILY or 12 NEWS)

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Posted 11/26/17 , edited 11/26/17
Ditto what sundin13 said.

Conservatism prior to Trump was characterized by two commitments: one to classical liberalism, and another to reaction. Trumpism is a rejection of the former in favor of the latter. McCain is simply stating a commitment to the conservatism of yesterday.
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Posted 11/26/17 , edited 11/26/17
Biden saying the international liberal order is in trouble: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rq5XcLezxNA
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Posted 11/26/17 , edited 11/26/17

MysticGon wrote:

Leaders of the post-war era had seen the breakdown of the world order. They saw open markets give way to protectionism and poverty. They saw ethnic and nationalist passions give way to violence and misery. They saw the brutal ambition of hostile great powers give way to war and genocide. In the aftermath of that tragic era, those leaders forged a liberal world order that ushered in an unprecedented era of stability, security and prosperity.

This new order rejected the principles that led to the failure of its predecessor. It was based not on ethno-nationalism, spheres of influence and might-makes-right imperialism, but rather on universal values, human rights, rule of law, open commerce and national sovereignty. This liberal order was not an accident. It was the result of vigorous, tireless efforts to advance, defend and preserve the values that provided its foundation.



This quote must be refering to a sect of liberalism called neo-liberalism. The neo-liberals were the major anti-trump faction within the republican party. When the populist faction, which is lead by an alliance of Christian conservative and classical liberal, take over the republican party during 2016, many neo-liberals defect to the democrat side where they help hillary clinton gain leadership of the democratic party.

The neo-liberals claim to oppose imperialism but they actually use transnational organizations to undermine the soveriegnty of former european colonies and establish puppet governments in the third world. The neo-liberal claim to oppose government intervention. However, they actually promote heavy government intervention in the third world through transnational governments and puppet governments who then help the western corporate conduct various criminal activities in the third world. The neo-liberals claim that they need to solve the rampart third world problems like corruption, crimes, and poverty but the neo-liberals are often the one behind the third world problems.
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Posted 11/26/17 , edited 11/26/17

MysticGon wrote:

The point he's making is he wants to preserve the globalist status quo and reject the days of emperors, tsars and kings. So he's not gunning for a reduction in the military, repealing the second amendment, banning of fossil fuels and free healthcare your average liberal wants.

So frankly I figure this to be some high level, tongue-in-cheek, titled for clicks trolling. But in a way to get as many people reading his thoughts on a issue that is very important to him. It's definitely combative though. Painting one side as bad and his side as good. So it's definitely not like Bernie's attempt to remove the negative connotation from socialism. This is McCain rallying a base that doesn't vote for him, or rather can't vote for him.

That said if McCain survives his cancer his political career won't survive these latest shows of his "Maverick"-ness. So I'm half expecting a party switch or retirement announcement.


Using the term "liberal" isn't McCain trolling, it's him using shorthand for international ideas such as liberal internationalism (military and/or humanitarian intervention in unstable regions) and liberal international economic order (free trade agreements). "Liberal" might be a running pejorative in conservative punditry, but it's not inherently the inverse of American conservatism. Large, international corporations generally support free trade because it eases their costs to do business; as do smaller companies that benefit from overseas products. That many of Trump's own campaign products bear a "made in China" label is no accident. NAFTA, for instance, was passed with bipartisan support on both the Senate and House with more Republicans than Democrats supporting it.

Likewise, liberal internationalism has been a key part of Republican foreign policy in the time before Trump. Invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, sanctions on North Korea and Syria, anti-AIDS funding to Africa: all liberal internationalism. The "liberal world order" has not solely belonged to liberal parties.

Controversial and sometimes contentious as some policies and decisions have been, the international community has enjoyed substantial economic growth and development that would not have enjoyed the same access to resources in a world walled off by each nation playing a zero-sum game of economic isolationism. Likewise, as long as recent military engagements have been for the US, allowing instability to continue has clear and present costs to the stability of the entire world (a lesson learned in both world wars).

As has already been noted in this thread, McCain is more likely appealing to the economic conservatives in his own party and in his own state, against the rising sentiment of Trumpism. He's appealing to the part of the conservative base that puts more thought into policy than if a term has the "L" word in it.
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Posted 11/26/17 , edited 11/26/17
kudos to his survival but he's just one more rhino in the pack of rhinos. he crossed over some time back, one may still carry their party's name but they jump around so much that it makes frog legs in a skillet jealous. there is nothing good which comes from politics, but since it would be total chaos if we governed ourselves (over all), we're pretty much trapped with these monsters who think they know what's best for the people when most have never spent a day in their existence on the level of the average person. these days liberal logic is bad, whereas, here as of late, some steps with conservative logic has begun to concern me, case in point this rhino here.
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Posted 11/26/17 , edited 11/27/17

niotabunny wrote:

kudos to his survival but he's just one more rhino in the pack of rhinos. he crossed over some time back, one may still carry their party's name but they jump around so much that it makes frog legs in a skillet jealous. there is nothing good which comes from politics, but since it would be total chaos if we governed ourselves (over all), we're pretty much trapped with these monsters who think they know what's best for the people when most have never spent a day in their existence on the level of the average person. these days liberal logic is bad, whereas, here as of late, some steps with conservative logic has begun to concern me, case in point this rhino here.


I wouldn't consider McCain's views conservative logic. I wouldn't even consider him a conservative. The fact that he got so close to the presidency under the Republican banner is concerning though. His vision seems to be one where America becomes more like Europe. Where the politics are just different levels of left, as opposed to an actual right. That would be catastrophic in my opinion.
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Posted 11/26/17 , edited 11/26/17

MysticGon wrote:

I wouldn't consider McCain's views conservative logic. I wouldn't even consider him a conservative.


There are conservatives who think that true conservatism requires a commitment to classical liberalism, and that it is the alt-Right that is deeply unconservative.


The influence of the so-called alt-Right should not be exaggerated. Nevertheless, the growing popularity of neo-reactionaries, white nationalists, and men’s-rights activists, to say nothing of freelance provocateurs like Milo Yiannopoulos, demonstrate the appeal of joining an opposition to the modern Left that is not liberal and, because it is not liberal, also not conservative.


http://www.nationalreview.com/article/447324/conservatisms-intellectual-divide-classical-liberals-vs-reactionaries
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Posted 11/26/17 , edited 11/26/17

mittemeyer wrote:


MysticGon wrote:

I wouldn't consider McCain's views conservative logic. I wouldn't even consider him a conservative.


There are conservatives who think that true conservatism requires a commitment to classical liberalism, and that it is the alt-Right that is deeply unconservative.


The influence of the so-called alt-Right should not be exaggerated. Nevertheless, the growing popularity of neo-reactionaries, white nationalists, and men’s-rights activists, to say nothing of freelance provocateurs like Milo Yiannopoulos, demonstrate the appeal of joining an opposition to the modern Left that is not liberal and, because it is not liberal, also not conservative.


http://www.nationalreview.com/article/447324/conservatisms-intellectual-divide-classical-liberals-vs-reactionaries


Well like it or not the Tea Party and Atl-Right are the only proactive voices in the Republican Party. The old guard acted as a break to the Democrats. Reacting to their legislation with very little in the way of their own ideas. Clinton had NAFTA and Obama had ACA. The two Bushes had very little in the way of life changing ambitions so in a way they were very conservative. But the base no longer wants that and instead they are becoming more like Democrats, craving for big ideas that affects everybody's lives.

So in a way like their first presidents thoughts on the Civil War. Going from simply stopping change, to bring about his own.
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Posted 11/26/17 , edited 11/27/17


If by "big ideas that effect everybody's lives" you mean thought-out policy initiatives, then reform conservatism (and its past adherents, such as McCain) would be more successful than they are,

No.

What conservatives want right now, is a show. And on that, the Donald more than delivers.
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Posted 11/26/17 , edited 11/27/17

mittemeyer wrote:



If by "big ideas that effect everybody's lives" you mean thought-out policy initiatives, then reform conservatism (and its past adherents, such as McCain) would be more successful than they are,

No.

What conservatives want right now, is a show. And on that, the Donald more than delivers.


I disagree. People don't want to pay a tax penalty because of the individual mandate. They are hoping it's done away with. There are people who are still underemployed, they want manufacturing/construction jobs to return to the U.S. There are people worried about gang violence and want a crackdown on illegal immigration.

Yes the wall and larger military are for show but Trump pretty much hit the nail on the head when it comes to speaking the language of middle class Americans.
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