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Posted 11/26/17 , edited 11/26/17

MysticGon wrote:
I disagree. People don't want to pay a tax penalty because of the individual mandate. They are hoping it's done away with. There are people who are still underemployed, they want manufacturing/construction jobs to return to the U.S. There are people worried about gang violence and want a crackdown on illegal immigration.

Yes the wall and larger military are for show but Trump pretty much hit the nail on the head when it comes to speaking the language of middle class Americans.


Middle class Americans are not interested in policy. Trump ran on a repeal of Obamacare promising lower costs and better care, and people ate it up because people don't know anything about policy. He knows about as much on healthcare as the average man on the street. The xenophobic policies that have been enacted in his name, such as his travel ban, have left us no safer than before, and were purely about optics. And the economy. What exactly has Donald Trump done to bring manufacturing and construction jobs to the U.S.? The only thing I will give you is crime--Jeff Sessions has taken a hard line on crime, but it's anyone's guess as to whether the middle class cares about that.

Again, middle class Americans are not interested in policy, and Trump's handle on government policy was not what got him elected. (If we wanted someone wonkish in the White House, Hillary would have been a better choice.) To say that Trump speaks "the language of middle class Americans" and to suggest that he has some handle on real policies that can help them is a contradiction in terms.
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Posted 11/26/17 , edited 11/27/17

mittemeyer wrote:


MysticGon wrote:
I disagree. People don't want to pay a tax penalty because of the individual mandate. They are hoping it's done away with. There are people who are still underemployed, they want manufacturing/construction jobs to return to the U.S. There are people worried about gang violence and want a crackdown on illegal immigration.

Yes the wall and larger military are for show but Trump pretty much hit the nail on the head when it comes to speaking the language of middle class Americans.


Middle class Americans are not interested in policy. Trump ran on a repeal of Obamacare promising lower costs and better care, and people ate it up because people don't know anything about policy. He knows about as much on healthcare as the average man on the street. The xenophobic policies that have been enacted in his name, such as his travel ban, have left us no safer than before, and were purely about optics. And the economy. What exactly has Donald Trump done to bring manufacturing and construction jobs to the U.S.? The only thing I will give you is crime--Jeff Sessions has taken a hard line on crime, but it's anyone's guess as to whether the middle class cares about that.

Again, middle class Americans are not interested in policy, and Trump's handle on government policy was not what got him elected. (If we wanted someone wonkish in the White House, Hillary would have been a better choice.) To say that Trump speaks "the language of middle class Americans" and to suggest that he has some handle on real policies that can help them is a contradiction in terms.


Perhaps. You could get a sense by talking to them. I'm can't speak for anyone else on the forum but I'm definitely in the middle class. So speaking to coworkers, friends and peers in general I'd have to agree, it's more about who's in the White House than what they do there. That's for both sides. But speaking in big ideas and in simple, non-focused-group-tested terms is what got people talking and buying what he's selling. And if you go back to his early interviews, Trump is really enthused with politics. It's not a passing fancy for him. That said his ideas would be more potent in the hands of a Rand Paul. People do have concerns beyond their day to day grind. Especially when CNN, Twitter and Fox News tell you you'll die if don't vote right way.
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Posted 11/26/17 , edited 11/26/17

MysticGon wrote:
Perhaps. You could get a sense by talking to them. I'm can't speak for anyone else on the forum but I'm definitely in the middle class. So speaking to coworkers, friends and peers in general I'd have to agree, it's more about who's in the White House than what they do there. That's for both sides. But speaking in big ideas and in simple, non-focused-group-tested terms is what got people talking and buying what he's selling. And if you go back to his early interviews, Trump is really enthused with politics. It's not a passing fancy for him. That said his ideas would be more potent in the hands of a Rand Paul. People do have concerns beyond their day to day grind. Especially when CNN, Twitter and Fox News tell you you'll die if don't vote right way.


He's enthused with the idea that people care what he has to say about politics ( or anything at all really ). There's a reason he's been on every side of the fence there is on any given issue over the years. Why he's been a Democrat, a Republican, an Independent and back around again. Why he's been both pro-choice and pro-life. There's no focus group because he is basically the focus group. It's what he can say that will get him the most praise and credit. In a sense you could say he was shopping political parties to find which one would give him the most applause.

He's spent most his adult life desperately trying to get NYC to like him and its categorically rejected him for being crass new money. He likewise has a similar obsession with Hollywood and with the media. Whatever airs he can put on to get into the clubs he wants to be in he'll do. While conversely even the slightest suggestion he doesn't belong in these circles will send him over the edge.

I mean, let's be honest here. Can you actually articulate what Trump's political platform is and what his actual policies are? And I mean beyond the childish broad strokes like Build A Wall(tm), make us all winners, so on and so forth. There's no idea he has that has a real comprehensive policy behind it. There's no nuts and bolts behind any of the curtains. It's all just a song and dance. The tune of which changes depending on the audience he's speaking too.

His only consistent policy is undo anything Obama did no matter what it is or how ridiculous it comes across. Everything else he's said has been a broad platitude with no explanation as to how it could actually be done. Then when he tries to do it, it exposes just how completely ignorant he is of the issue he's yelling at. I mean, the corner stones of his campaign were Build A Wall(tm), The Country Fucking Sucks But I R Smart And Can Fix It & Lock That Bitch Up.

He never got up in front of a campaign rally and explained what he wanted to do and how. The how part was always just a "believe me". He got up and delivered a show for applause. Even now, whenever he's pissed off about something he goes back to that root for some ego praise. Holding a rally somewhere or crawling onto Fox News for some lovin'.

I mean, President Obama went on Bill O'Reilly. Can you even imagine President Trump being willing to sit down with Rachel Maddow?

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Posted 11/27/17 , edited 11/27/17

mittemeyer wrote:


MysticGon wrote:
I disagree. People don't want to pay a tax penalty because of the individual mandate. They are hoping it's done away with. There are people who are still underemployed, they want manufacturing/construction jobs to return to the U.S. There are people worried about gang violence and want a crackdown on illegal immigration.

Yes the wall and larger military are for show but Trump pretty much hit the nail on the head when it comes to speaking the language of middle class Americans.


Middle class Americans are not interested in policy. Trump ran on a repeal of Obamacare promising lower costs and better care, and people ate it up because people don't know anything about policy. He knows about as much on healthcare as the average man on the street. The xenophobic policies that have been enacted in his name, such as his travel ban, have left us no safer than before, and were purely about optics. And the economy. What exactly has Donald Trump done to bring manufacturing and construction jobs to the U.S.? The only thing I will give you is crime--Jeff Sessions has taken a hard line on crime, but it's anyone's guess as to whether the middle class cares about that.

Again, middle class Americans are not interested in policy, and Trump's handle on government policy was not what got him elected. (If we wanted someone wonkish in the White House, Hillary would have been a better choice.) To say that Trump speaks "the language of middle class Americans" and to suggest that he has some handle on real policies that can help them is a contradiction in terms.


Haha! I find it amazing how clueless people are as to why Trump was elected and shy we supported him. We can tell you why we voted for him and you will not listen. We can show you what he says and you will not understand. We can show you what he has done and is doing but you will sit there and deny reality itself.

I'm not going to bother debating you over this just know that your cluelessness will get him elected in 2020. 7 more years.
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Posted 11/27/17 , edited 11/27/17

runec wrote:


MysticGon wrote:
Perhaps. You could get a sense by talking to them. I'm can't speak for anyone else on the forum but I'm definitely in the middle class. So speaking to coworkers, friends and peers in general I'd have to agree, it's more about who's in the White House than what they do there. That's for both sides. But speaking in big ideas and in simple, non-focused-group-tested terms is what got people talking and buying what he's selling. And if you go back to his early interviews, Trump is really enthused with politics. It's not a passing fancy for him. That said his ideas would be more potent in the hands of a Rand Paul. People do have concerns beyond their day to day grind. Especially when CNN, Twitter and Fox News tell you you'll die if don't vote right way.


He's enthused with the idea that people care what he has to say about politics ( or anything at all really ). There's a reason he's been on every side of the fence there is on any given issue over the years. Why he's been a Democrat, a Republican, an Independent and back around again. Why he's been both pro-choice and pro-life. There's no focus group because he is basically the focus group. It's what he can say that will get him the most praise and credit. In a sense you could say he was shopping political parties to find which one would give him the most applause.

He's spent most his adult life desperately trying to get NYC to like him and its categorically rejected him for being crass new money. He likewise has a similar obsession with Hollywood and with the media. Whatever airs he can put on to get into the clubs he wants to be in he'll do. While conversely even the slightest suggestion he doesn't belong in these circles will send him over the edge.

I mean, let's be honest here. Can you actually articulate what Trump's political platform is and what his actual policies are? And I mean beyond the childish broad strokes like Build A Wall(tm), make us all winners, so on and so forth. There's no idea he has that has a real comprehensive policy behind it. There's no nuts and bolts behind any of the curtains. It's all just a song and dance. The tune of which changes depending on the audience he's speaking too.

His only consistent policy is undo anything Obama did no matter what it is or how ridiculous it comes across. Everything else he's said has been a broad platitude with no explanation as to how it could actually be done. Then when he tries to do it, it exposes just how completely ignorant he is of the issue he's yelling at. I mean, the corner stones of his campaign were Build A Wall(tm), The Country Fucking Sucks But I R Smart And Can Fix It & Lock That Bitch Up.

He never got up in front of a campaign rally and explained what he wanted to do and how. The how part was always just a "believe me". He got up and delivered a show for applause. Even now, whenever he's pissed off about something he goes back to that root for some ego praise. Holding a rally somewhere or crawling onto Fox News for some lovin'.

I mean, President Obama went on Bill O'Reilly. Can you even imagine President Trump being willing to sit down with Rachel Maddow?



Your Canadian. Why should the US president or any American care about your opinions on our politics? Of course you won't be interested in Trump because he really isn't your president. Tredue is your president and He's letting in ISIS but oh boy if Trump implemented a travel ban its oh so bad he should be more like Canada and welcome ISIS.

Trump has literally hundreds of millions of people that care what he has to say about politics including you, I know how active you are obsessing over his every word. The fact that your trying to convince yourself otherwise is a denial of reality.

I'm not taking the rest of your bait as we have answered you many times over previously but you apparently forgot.
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Posted 11/27/17 , edited 11/27/17

Rujikin wrote:

Haha! I find it amazing how clueless people are as to why Trump was elected and shy we supported him. We can tell you why we voted for him and you will not listen. We can show you what he says and you will not understand. We can show you what he has done and is doing but you will sit there and deny reality itself.

I'm not going to bother debating you over this just know that your cluelessness will get him elected in 2020. 7 more years.


I actually do understand why people support Donald Trump. He is a working-class populist who makes appeals to white identity politics. He is a hawk on immigration and crime. What I was saying is that Donald Trump himself doesn't have a head for policy details. He's not a policy guy, and doesn't pretend to be. (Well, actually, he does say things about policy that are downright untrue, so maybe he does pretend.) On healthcare, he came up empty because he didn't know anything about healthcare, which I don't think is that uncommon, since I can't say I know anything myself.
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Posted 11/27/17 , edited 11/27/17

mittemeyer wrote:


Rujikin wrote:

Haha! I find it amazing how clueless people are as to why Trump was elected and shy we supported him. We can tell you why we voted for him and you will not listen. We can show you what he says and you will not understand. We can show you what he has done and is doing but you will sit there and deny reality itself.

I'm not going to bother debating you over this just know that your cluelessness will get him elected in 2020. 7 more years.


I actually do understand why people support Donald Trump. He is a working-class populist who makes appeals to white identity politics. He is a hawk on immigration and crime. What I was saying is that Donald Trump himself doesn't have a head for policy details. He's not a policy guy, and doesn't pretend to be. (Well, actually, he does say things about policy that are downright untrue, so maybe he does pretend.) On healthcare, he came up empty because he didn't know anything about healthcare, which I don't think is that uncommon, since I can't say I know anything myself.


Haha! You both say he's a populist yet you think he's using divide and conquer like Hillary was doing. There is where you do not understand him. He is for all legal Americans.

Trump is a CEO. CEO's may not be experts in everything but they are good at finding experts who can do what they want. Think about it like a Captain of a ship. The Captain hires good people to maintain the ship, plans the course, and tells his men what to do. Actual implementation of tasks are done by the people he hired and they report problems back to the captain who decides which solution to take.

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Posted 11/27/17 , edited 11/27/17

Rujikin wrote:

Haha! You both say he's a populist yet you think he's using divide and conquer like Hillary was doing. There is where you do not understand him. He is for all legal Americans.


I did not say he is using divide-and-conquer. In fact, I think on issues like the debt ceiling deal, you could see him trying to appeal to people outside of the base. That said, I think his approval rating speaks for itself. He seems to be good at keeping the base happy, but has trouble appealing to liberals or moderates.


Trump is a CEO. CEO's may not be experts in everything but they are good at finding experts who can do what they want. Think about it like a Captain of a ship. The Captain hires good people to maintain the ship, plans the course, and tells his men what to do. Actual implementation of tasks are done by the people he hired and they report problems back to the captain who decides which solution to take.


On certain issues, yes, he does seem to trust his advisers. For example, he trusted Jeff Sessions when it came to repealing DACA, and he trusted McMaster when he chose to launch a missile strike at one of Assad's bases. His promise to repeal and replace Obamacare feels like it came more from the gut though--I doubt he consulted anyone about making this campaign promise, and when it came time for him to deliver, he came up empty.

Speaking personally, I do not care for his management style. I consider it the opposite of what management should try to achieve. I've had to deal with a boss who screams at subordinates in a rage, and it is one of the most de-motivating things to have to deal with while trying to get work done. Based on reports from the White House, that is exactly what Donald Trump does--he doesn't bother to understand the problem, and instead tells you, in the most boorish way possible, what results he expects. And when you're done, he doesn't bother trying to understand what you've accomplished, but will come at you if there are any problems later on, even if there was no way to account for them at the time. A boss like that has trouble attracting talent. With the White House understaffed as it is, as word continues to spread, the likelihood that Trump will fill those vacancies will continue to drop.
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Posted 11/27/17 , edited 11/27/17

Rujikin wrote:

Your Canadian. Why should the US president or any American care about your opinions on our politics? Of course you won't be interested in Trump because he really isn't your president. Tredue is your president and He's letting in ISIS but oh boy if Trump implemented a travel ban its oh so bad he should be more like Canada and welcome ISIS.

Trump has literally hundreds of millions of people that care what he has to say about politics including you, I know how active you are obsessing over his every word. The fact that your trying to convince yourself otherwise is a denial of reality.

I'm not taking the rest of your bait as we have answered you many times over previously but you apparently forgot.


Among the MANY things you have got wrong in your anti-Canadian rant is the fact that our head of Government is called Prime Minister. But go on. spew your ignorant hate.

Edit: Woo reported for calling someone on their blatant ignorance.
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Posted 11/27/17 , edited 11/27/17
I should also post more criticisms of the neo-liberal intervention on weak states which assume that western states will help foreigners without personal incentives. The "foreign aid" to developing nations is a high-interest loans. The former european colonies are tricked into accepting a large amount of this high-interest loans so they will gather a debt that is too high to be paid back. The liberal institutions will use this huge debt to force the developing countries into employing neo-liberal policies that prioritize foreign criminal investors over the local citizen and cause underdevelopment of the third world countries. The "food relief" are somethimes given to well-fed areas in Africa to force the local farmers out of business. After losing their farmers, the people in the affected areas will have huge foreign dependency and will accept policies that benefit foreigners at the cost of the natives.
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Posted 11/27/17 , edited 11/27/17

mittemeyer wrote:

I actually do understand why people support Donald Trump. He is a working-class populist who makes appeals to white identity politics. He is a hawk on immigration and crime. What I was saying is that Donald Trump himself doesn't have a head for policy details. He's not a policy guy, and doesn't pretend to be. (Well, actually, he does say things about policy that are downright untrue, so maybe he does pretend.) On healthcare, he came up empty because he didn't know anything about healthcare, which I don't think is that uncommon, since I can't say I know anything myself.


White identity politics? You know, how awful Hillary presented herself is certainly a factor. At one point during the campaign, Hillary visited Johnstown Wire Technologies, which is literally within walking distance from where I live. Everything was hush-hush, and most of the workers were downright told not to come to work. I mean, damn, hardly anyone knew until afterwards that she even stepped foot in Johnstown. Everyone and their grandma knew when Trump came through, though. Couldn't go anywhere, really, thanks to the damned traffic. From what I gather, that wasn't the only time Hillary and her guys did such a thing. That's not exactly a good impression.
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Posted 11/27/17 , edited 11/27/17

Rujikin wrote:

Trump is a CEO. CEO's may not be experts in everything but they are good at finding experts who can do what they want. Think about it like a Captain of a ship. The Captain hires good people to maintain the ship, plans the course, and tells his men what to do. Actual implementation of tasks are done by the people he hired and they report problems back to the captain who decides which solution to take.



That is quite endearing that you have the firm belief that President Trump was a CEO that matches your description.
There is a significant difference between being a CEO of a family-owned company and a company that is public or owned by a private equity group.
The Trump Organization was started by his grandmother, Elizabeth Trump, and has remained in the family ever since.
This means that Trump has never had to deal with stakeholders other than himself, his family, and the select few that he personally selected to be part of the company.
Without a board of directors and shareholders, Trump was allowed to do as he wished without any chance of being removed from his position.
Without checks and balances, a CEO of a family-owned company can continue to fail and give the illusion of success
A fine example of how a family-owned corporation can go to hell in a hand basket easily would be the Baring family (a merchant bank in the United Kingdom) or the Bancroft family (another bank that failed but due to their own inability to see beyond their family's "captain").

It's clear that you haven't done much work as upper management or an executive to have such an innocent view of the position that President Trump held or, rather, any type of CEO.
I would suggest backing out of political discussions if you cannot prevent yourself from attempting to troll others.
Or, to phrase it in a similar way as yourself, "Why should the President of the United States or any other American care about your opinions about our politics? Of course you would resort to trolling because you seem to be incapable of formulating a thought-out response that isn't baiting the 'opposition to your views'."

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Posted 11/27/17 , edited 11/28/17

mittemeyer wrote:


Rujikin wrote:

Haha! I find it amazing how clueless people are as to why Trump was elected and shy we supported him. We can tell you why we voted for him and you will not listen. We can show you what he says and you will not understand. We can show you what he has done and is doing but you will sit there and deny reality itself.

I'm not going to bother debating you over this just know that your cluelessness will get him elected in 2020. 7 more years.


I actually do understand why people support Donald Trump. He is a working-class populist who makes appeals to white identity politics. He is a hawk on immigration and crime. What I was saying is that Donald Trump himself doesn't have a head for policy details. He's not a policy guy, and doesn't pretend to be. (Well, actually, he does say things about policy that are downright untrue, so maybe he does pretend.) On healthcare, he came up empty because he didn't know anything about healthcare, which I don't think is that uncommon, since I can't say I know anything myself.


I think came up short was because of McCain's grievances with the president. Come up 1 vote short is pretty close to passing.
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Posted 11/27/17 , edited 11/27/17


The version of the law that failed by one vote was already a stripped down bill that only would remove the penalty for failing to get insurance. In all fairness, I don't really see how you can call the repeal of the penalty for failing to get insurance a repeal of the entire law. It's a huge law. This goes back to what we were talking about how most of Trump's achievements have been purely for show. Repealing the penalty for failing to get insurance would not have significantly reduced the cost of insurance, nor would it have improved the quality of care--key parts of Trump's promise to voters.
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Posted 11/27/17 , edited 11/28/17

mittemeyer wrote:



The version of the law that failed by one vote was already a stripped down bill that only would remove the penalty for failing to get insurance. In all fairness, I don't really see how you can call the repeal of the penalty for failing to get insurance a repeal of the entire law. It's a huge law. This goes back to what we were talking about how most of Trump's achievements have been purely for show. Repealing the penalty for failing to get insurance would not have significantly reduced the cost of insurance, nor would it have improved the quality of care--key parts of Trump's promise to voters.


That's the most important part for most. If you are not forced to buy it then you no longer have to worry about it. The employer mandate, pre-existing condition and 26 year-old on parents plan are popular provisions most people like. But the individual mandate has and always will be the point of opposition until it's done away with.
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