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Posted 12/24/17 , edited 12/24/17
I'm not finished reading it yet, I am up to Chapter 141 now.

***Spoilers for everything up so Chapter 141 beyond this point, but I am not going to Spoiler tag everything, so keep reading at your own peril***


I thought the series started out fairly slowly, with the eponymous "Medaka Box" machinations. I haven't seen the anime yet, but IMO all of that should have fit into 2 episodes at most because it just takes time away from the meat of the series.

The fight against Class 13 and the Flask Plan and the Kumagawa arc were both really good, page turning arcs, although I have to say, the antagonists really got off easy considering everything they did and all the people they hurt. I can understand that Medaka's personality lends into letting people off the hook and turning enemies into allies, but I can't believe everyone else in the school would be so forgiving. How is the Chairman getting off scott free considering he is willing to sacrifice the lives of the students? Why are parents sending their kids to such a dangerous school? Manga Logic which of course becomes a huge twist in the story later on.

I was rather apprehensive during the Medaka successor arc.
I could see some sort of foreshadowing when Zenkichi said he wanted the Vice-President's position as his extra prize. This should have been a huge warning bell to Medaka about how Zenkichi felt.
He was the one to be with her for 13 years, he was the one who helped her get elected, he was the one who helped her through the early days of the Medaka Box program, and even with 3 higher positions open, she gave him the absolute lowest position on the Student Council and told him he would have to work his way up the chain. Then she goes and gives higher positions to former enemies at the drop of a hat.

During the first Orientation Training. I thought there would be 2 ways it would play out. Either Zenkichi somehow magically appeared at the top of the clock tower in front of everyone else and won, or he was still stuck on the field and he ends up looking like a heel. Well...he ended up looking like a heel, and that was the outcome I wanted the least. To top it off, Medaka punched him in the head and basically seemed to say that she was wrong to have ever trusted Zenkichi, then to add insult to injury the line about making him clean up the clock tower. I guess this is the point where the reader is supposed to stop rooting for Medaka, and I certainly did. Even so, when I found out Ajimu wanted Zenkichi to fight against Medaka, I was thinking "NO NO NO!" When Zenkichi peacefully confronted Medaka with his thoughts and she ended up beating the shit out of him with absolute glee, I pretty much lost all respect for her. Even after she explained to Kikaijima that her harsh words and actions were to motivate Zenkichi, I couldn't renew my respect for her. After all of the things Zenkichi had done for her, after all the time they spent together, she wasn't treating him like a friend, she was treating him like a pet to be trained or a tool to be used. This is where my "NO NO NO", turned into "YES YES YES, It's about time"

Still I felt bad for Zenkichi, I knew he didn't want to physically fight Medaka, and when he came up with the idea to beat her out in the election, I thought it was brilliant. Then his speech basically showed he was still doing it all for Medaka's sake. Although there was something that was starting to get on my nerves. All of the "meta" references and fourth wall breaking were starting to get on my nerves. I had no idea it would end in what honestly, I thought was a ridiculous premise, that Aijimu was creating this entire story as a manga. I thought it took away from what should have been a very profound arc in the relationship of Medaka and Zenkichi. Something to show Medaka that she was hurting those closest to her and treating them like tools.
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Posted 12/25/17 , edited 12/26/17
I read the Black Wedding Feast Arc last night, it was actually a pretty good arc, although there were some things that didn't make sense to me.

1) What purpose could the Ge'hyoukai proctor have for attacking the Culinary Society Presidents, other than just to show she was supposed to be a bad ass, and I suppose intimidate Medaka (obviously that didn't work)

2) Why did they even need to inform Medaka that the Black Wedding Feast was back on. It was supposed to be a contest between the 7 branch families, so technically they really didn't have to inform her until the contest was over, and tell her, well now you need to marry the winner.

3) What was the purpose of making Medaka choose 5 other team mates? Why didn't they just insert Medaka in among the other 6 contestants and have her compete as normal? I guess the only reason in the end was to have them end up as hostages to coerce Medaka, which was completely unneeded since from the start Medaka said she would go along with their rules. Which goes again toward the question, why did they need to shackle Medaka while the other 6 contestants fought it out to decide who fought her in the end. Not only shackle her but kind of treat her even more rudely than that? They had her friends as hostages to make her comply.

4) So apparently Medaka's uncle won the right to marry her in the previous Black Wedding Feast, but the he refused to marry her because she was his niece and he saw her as a daughter. So the Ge'hyoukai had him killed which leads so several questions

a)Why did her uncle's family choose him as a representative if he couldn't/wouldn't marry her. Besides that, anyone from his family would
be closely related to Medaka. If all of these minor branch families constantly married into the main family, there would be all kinds of
inbreeding anyway.

b) So It was implied that he was killed for not marrying Medaka. Why would the other families care? Seems like that would be perfect for
them so that one of the other branch families didn't rise above them

c) It was implied that he was killed the day he won the previous Black Wedding Feast, but he also killed the 6 other suitors and trained the
the girls to start another Black Wedding Feast, and that he didn't want a man to have Medaka. Okay so how did he kill the other suitors
and train the girls after he was dead? (manga logic I guess yet to be explained). If he didn't want a man to have Medaka, why even
bother training the girls If he had that much influence on the Black Wedding Feast, why not have it abolished all together?

d) if he killed the other suitors, who were presumably innocent, it doesn't sound like he ended up being a guy worth Medaka getting
revenge for him.

5) So if her Uncle couldn't marry her because they were uncle and niece, how is a female going to marry her? Same sex marriage isn't legal in Japan. Supposedly these girls were also dedicated to Medaka's uncle and told her that her uncle cared for her and that is why he trained them to keep a man away from her, but they acted extremely savage toward her...so they obviously didn't respect him that much. They said they were after her blood. Is that in a literal sense, or saying they wanted her genetics in their minor family bloodlines? How was that going to happen if she was supposedly going to Marry a female. Did they expect to make her a brood mare for the males of the family? They obviously knew how powerful Medaka was, so even if they could use some sort of long time honor code for force her to marry into the families, there's no way they could force her to breed with men in those families who were not her spouse. Of course that goes back to her uncle's supposed wishes, that he didn't want a man to have her.

6) Udou seemed so concerned about Zenkichi confessing his feelings to Medaka, as if her agreeing to marry someone outside of the minor families would make the Black Wedding Feast null and void. But considering they had hostages, and she ended up killing Zenkichi, it seems like these were pretty weak rules. Or was she just upset that she would have to kill him, because it did seem she was upset when she did kill him.

7) Ajimu was released and told Medaka she could easily use her skills to release the other hostages, revive Zenkichi and just make the entire problem of the Black Wedding Feast go away. Medaka refused. Sorry, but I don't see that as honorable, I see it as stupid. The priority here is to save her friends and lover....screw honor, because the suitors and Ge'hyoukai had been spitting all over any sort of rules from the get go.Medaka also seemed to be saying she wanted to defeat them so soundly, that they would never come at her again...but Ajimu could have done that...and agreed to do it. Why put your friends' safety at risk for that..that's stupidity, not honor

8) Why in the world did they nasty little kid want Medaka to gouge her eyes out? It seemed it was supposed to be some sort of assurance that they would abide by the rules laid out for the winner. Will a) how could you not trust Medaka, after she just told the most OP character in existence that no, she wouldn't ask her for help and she wanted to do it herself? b) If you are really worried they won't abide by the rules, then Medaka could just ignore the rule to gouge her eyes out. c) She said she wanted to get rid of Medaka's "perceptive eyes"...but Ajimu was clearly the most perceptive and dangerous person in Medaka's group, so having Medaka gouge out her eyes wouldn't protect against Ajimu. d) why in the world would you have the person you want to marry gouge out her eyes? Kind of damaged goods at that point. e) Why couldn't Medaka just say NO at that point?
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Posted 12/26/17 , edited 12/26/17
Don't know anything about Medaka Box, but its NisiOisin, so it pretty much has to be good.
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Posted 12/26/17 , edited 12/26/17

kfdz277 wrote:

Don't know anything about Medaka Box, but its NisiOisin, so it pretty much has to be good.


It is good, but sometimes the need for absurd twists detracts a little from what I thought could be deeper stories. Most of the characters are just needlessly violent and I think their comeuppance is often lacking or non-existent. I guess that's just a shounen manga for you
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Posted 12/26/17 , edited 12/26/17

HOOfan_1 wrote:

I guess that's just a shounen manga for you
That's the whole point. The entire manga is a deconstruction of Shounen manga.
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Posted 12/26/17 , edited 12/27/17
Thanks for making me read this series again. It's one of my favorites.

1) For the first one, it's like you said, the proctor had no real reason to attack the culinary society students other than to show their ability. They were trying to intimidate. Yeah, it didn't really work but it's not like the proctor knew ahead of time that Medaka doesn't bend so easily.

2) True, they could have kept the process a secret and just given her the end result. However, there was also no real reason to keep the process a secret either at this point. I mean, it was already tradition in the Kurokami household that she would have 7 suitors and her husband would be chosen amongst them. As it was tradition, they didn't expect her to reject the event. Plus, the only reason she seems to been informed that the second Black Wedding Feast is going on was because she was in the room with Tsurubami, 1 of the 7 representatives. Maybe if she hadn't been there, she wouldn't have known and the Black Wedding Feast could have gone on without her knowing.

3) I think the reasoning behind Medaka's 5 allies was that the the Tsurubami household won the previous Feast so the Ge'hyoukai was allowing them to choose some of the conditions for this one. Since they were essentially rejecting the Wedding Feast and the other 6 suitors, the proctor decided a 6 vs 6 match would be fair. 6 for marriage, 6 against marriage rather than 6 for marriage and 1 against. Although, yeah, I thought it would have been a 1 vs 6, too.

And sure, they ended up as hostages in the end but that was because they were no longer going to do a 6 vs 6. Instead it was going to be a 1 vs 1 once the 6 suitors fought it out. Keeping them as hostages was just insurance to make sure she would stay to the end. Yeah, it was unnecessary since she said she would comply but it's not strange for a 'villain' to have a guarantee.

As for why they shackled and seemed to have treated her poorly despite her compliance, the shackles, again, were another guarantee to keep her from running or interfering. Not necessary but sort of reassuring. The abuse was probably just from the Ge'Hyoukai proctor who was already shown not caring about other people like with the culinary students.

4a) He was probably the only available representative of the Tsurubami household at the time and they probably didn't know his position on the matter until after the Feast took place. Also, there wouldn't be problems with inbreeding if the branch families alternate per generation. And in Japan it was once allowable for cousins to marry, not sure if that's still a thing though.

4b) It doesn't seem that the branch families cared. It looks like it was just the Ge'hyoukai who saw that as unacceptable and killed him off for not allowing the Kurokami bloodline to continue it's traditional prosperity.

4c) I think I initially took it as planning ahead for after his death rather than doing things after he died. But ultimately, should we really be surprised if he came back from death when we've seen multiple characters die and come back in this series by this point. They even poke fun at it themselves.

As for influencing the Black Wedding Feast as much as he did, it's because he couldn't abolish it that he trained the girls to be the next suitors. Chances are those families had multiple children, males at that, who were preferable for the Black Wedding Feast. Her uncle just picked females from each family, trained them in the Styles that they used, and had them replace the original suitors. Possibly.

4d) He might have killed but it was for her sake. Sort of. Honestly, sometimes you can't help who you love so whether or not she wants to get vengeance for him is up to her and how she feels.

5) I don't think it was that he couldn't marry her but rather didn't want to marry her. And maybe applying real world laws to a fictional Japan isn't the best idea. Even if same sex marriage wasn't allowed in their world, from the sound of it the Kurokami household and the Ge'Hyoukai could change that or override that because they have a strong influence in the world.

The whole blood thing is explained later, I think.

6) The Ge'Hyoukai wants the Kurokami bloodline to pass between the branch families to continue their prosperity. It's traditional for the Kurokami's to pick a suitor from one of the branch families. Medaka never showed any romantic interest in anyone so the Black Wedding Feast was held 3 years prior for the first time so the suitors could choose amongst themselves who would marry Medaka. During the first one, her uncle won but refused to marry her, upsetting the Ge'Hyoukai because the bloodline wouldn't continue. They were all killed, so the Black Wedding Feast was postponed.

Now, during this Feast, they were hoping the Feast would result in the continuation of the bloodline with one of the suitors winning. That's what the Ge'Hyoukai was gambling on. But none of that would matter if Medaka decides to reject the tradition altogether in favor of pursuing Zenkichi, her only love interest. So, as long as Zenkichi didn't confess, Medaka would have gone with the result of the Feast if one of the suitors had beat her. That's why Udou-san didn't want him confessing. She also killed him so he wouldn't be an option anymore and Momozono sealed him to prevent him being resurrected and forcing her to continue participating.

7) It's kind of a staple for the hero to fight with honor despite the opposition cheating and bending rules. It's pretty much expected of Medaka as well. And while yeah, Anshin'in-san could have wrecked the opposition easily, it's not as impactful if it's not Medaka who does it. It's hard to explain but if you don't lose directly to your enemy it's kind of hard to acknowledge it as an actual loss.

You say it's foolish for her to put her friends' safety at risk for the sake of that but was there really any risk? I mean, Medaka is almost as powerful as Anshin'in-san. It's not like her chances of winning were impossible. Plus, it was pretty much established that the other hostages would have been able to escape on their own. She accounted for that. Really, the only one in any real danger was Zenkichi who couldn't escape and was already mortally wounded/technically dead.

In reality, the only things at risk during that last game was Medaka's freedom and Momozono's pride. If Medaka lost, it would mean the permanent death of Zenkichi and the loss of the one reason she would have for genuinely rejecting the Black Wedding Feast. If Momozono lost however, it would be the end of the Black Wedding Feast. That being the case, she was willing to gamble her own freedom to destroy Momozono's pride and bring Zenkichi back to life.

I get that the whole dilemma could have been resolved in seconds with Anshin'in-san's abilities and Medaka wouldn't have had to gamble her life and Zenkichi's but to Anshin'in-san and Medaka there was no doubt of either her victory or the release of the hostages. There was essentially no risk for them.

8) That last rule about gouging out the 'perceptive' eyes was more-so to ruin her copy ability. Remember, she copies what she sees and makes it her own.

a) Momozono knows that Medaka is one that sticks to her word so she knows she would do it if she lost. It was more-so a preventative measure for a possible future where she later decides to over turn her promise. It would be harder for Medaka to fight back in the future if she can't use her full abilities.

b) Yeah, but Momozono knows she won't and that's what she's counting on.

c) Anshin'in-san is a threat but Momozono's sure that she wouldn't interfere if Medaka is the one who complies to the end result.

d) I don't think Momozono cares about how she looks... they just want her blood, remember?

e) She accepted the rule so that Momozono would think everything was going according to her plan. Medaka knew she had no real intention of cutting out her own tongue if she lost so she accepted the rule just to give her a false sense of control.

The whole thing was really a battle of minds and Medaka was playing it to destroy Momozono's pride and get her to surrender.



Man, that was way more than I was planning on talking about when I started this reply. Thankfully, I really like this series. But, yeah, what AsahinaInu said, this series was a deconstruction of Shounen. If it seems odd at times it's because the author wanted a different outlook from the typical Shounen but still had to follow some of the rules of Shounen. I like it though. It's not often a Shounen makes use of language and concepts to determine the outcome of a fight. Hope you're really enjoying it.
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Posted 12/26/17 , edited 12/27/17
Well, self reference aka meta isn't really uncommon in manga or anime. I think overall it's a great series, I just thought Zenkichi's conflict with Medaka in the Medaka Successor arc was a little degraded by the whole "we're living in a manga" reveal.

I also thought it was a little odd when Zenkichi peacefully went in to tell Medaka that she was wrong about human nature and she ends up pummeling him, and says "I like him better as an enemy". Sure this shows that she doesn't really differentiate between friends and enemies, and if anything often treats enemies better, but when has she ever attacked an enemy unawares, other than when she was brainwashed? Heck, early in the story, even when enemies attacked her she just brushed aside their attacks without really hurting them. She told Kikaijima that she was just trying to motivate him to become stronger, but she has motivated a lot of her enemies in the past without overwhelming violence. This was basically the kind of behavior that she scorned when Unzen "massacred" the Orchestra. I've got to go back to her logic of "you have no reason to attack me, so I didn't dodge". What was her reason for attacking Zenkichi ...simply because he disagreed with her? Something she said she wanted her student council members to do. She kind of went full Kumagawa on him, went crazy, and attacked him from behind. She knows he is a normal, she could have killed him, even if she was holding back. The revelation that she was using a mode to maker her weaker than her opponent should have meant something too. If she was weaker than Zenkichi and still pummeled him like that, to me it's proof he didn't try to fight back. She should have noticed that. Also if she was weaker than Zenkichi, how did she nearly put him through the wall? This was all after apologizing to him, I guess for what she said to him about how she couldn't believe "a man of his level tricked her" I suppose her point was she thought he was weak and weak willed. In the end Zenkichi never wanted violence against Medaka, and he proved that by beating her in the election. I'll have to go back and check the manga, but I don't recall Medaka ever apologizing to Zenkichi for the way she treated him (e.g. not giving him and his suggestions proper recognition and beating the crap out of him just because he voice his disagreement) I just kind of feel the resolution to that entire arc ended up being that Medaka was going to live for herself for a little while on a quest to determine what her purpose is. To me, the resolution should have been an epiphany by Medaka that she expects to much of her peers and when they can't deliver, she looks down on them. That seemed to be what Zenkichi meant when he said "Humans can be too right", possibly an odd translation for "humans can't be perfect".

To me the whole arc was about the fact that Medaka treated Zenkichi more like a pet, or a tool than a friend, and she was showing more compassion to her enemies, like offering Unzen and Kumagawa the Vice Presidency. He even provided her an unambiguous clue to his frustration when he said he wanted to become Vice President, at the beginning of the First Orientation, then she treated him like absolute crap when he didn't win and showed frustration. I just thought the idea of Ashin'in manipulating the who was the "main character" kind of detracted from the conflict between Medaka and Zenkichi.

I also thought it was odd when Medaka took Zenkichi hostage and Hitomi went to the hospital director and he said "let her be, she needs to learn no one is special"....why didn't Hitomi say "F YOU, she can learn that without endangering my son...because guess what he is special"

As for the language battles, since I don't know Japanese, especially Kanji, I usually just gloss over the rules. I suppose a lot of the ideas about multiple readings of Kanji are as foreign to me as the fact that write, right, rite, and wright are all pronounced the same may be to a native speaker of Japanese, or the fact that "right" has 5+ different meanings.
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Posted 12/27/17 , edited 12/27/17
True, meta-self-references aren't anything new but it's still kind of cool when done right. Either way it's not like I'm in it for just the meta-ness, I'm more in it for it's unpredictability.

I still don't think the whole "We're living in a manga" reveal takes anything away from the development. Anshin'in-san is the only one who thinks they live in a manga, so why should that affect anything else?

Think of it this way, if someone walked up to you and said that their whole life was perfect because they live in a simulated reality, you wouldn't immediately start to think that all your development in life up to that point was meaningless. That it's just some simulation being run to make that one guy's life perfect. You'd think that guy is crazy and go on living your life.

That's what's happening here. Anshin'in-san's meta-behavior is only because she thinks she's in a manga. Everyone else knows they're not in a manga so the developments in their lives are still valuable. And the development between Zenkichi and Medaka is still real and valuable.

Or are you perhaps just wishing that there was a more grand reason for forcing these two friends to fight and change their relationship? Like instead of it being part of some ploy to prove she's not in a manga, instead it was just part of a plot to take over the world? Or just changing Medaka for the better? Or something else?

I think no matter which way you put it, there couldn't have been any true grand reason behind forcing their relationship to change the way it did that would have been seen as justifiable. Like, if it was for the sake of world peace, she had to get Medaka and Zenkichi to fight and change their relationship. That reason might be more virtuous but wouldn't you still feel that their development would have been less genuine since it would only have been part of some scheme?


In terms of Medaka attacking Zenkichi, it did seem out of character at first but she did explain her reasoning and it does make sense in the end. "Hitoyoshi Zenkichi is a material that resonates when you hit it." She's been around Zenkichi the longest and knows that he develops and gets stronger by confronting hardships head on even when it's a losing battle.

True, she's never attacked an enemy first before but that's because she doesn't really acknowledge them as an enemy worth attacking until given a valid reason to do so. For her, seeing Zenkichi oppose her was more than enough reason to see him as an enemy worth attacking first. She realized that he would grow into a stronger and more interesting person if they were adversaries, so she beat him up in her weakest state so that he could see the huge difference between them and he would train to become an even stronger enemy. It's what she wants and what he was essentially asking for. Zenkichi wanted change in that moment and Medaka, as always, was willing to do what was necessary to grant that. "That man will grow. That is why I beat him more than necessary."

They both know what they're signing up for that's why Zenkichi and Medaka don't back down and no one stops them.

With Unzen's "massacre", she was more upset with the way he was handling that specific situation. To Medaka, Unzen's approach was like finding a stain in the carpet and then burning the house down to get rid of the stain. Violence was unnecessary in that situation. In this case, she deemed violence as okay because she knows how Zenkichi works.

She's not upset with him disagreeing with her, in fact she was really happy in that scene.

The revelation that he was pummeled in her weakest state was to emphasize his weakness not Zenkichi's unwillingness to fight. He was definitely more than willing. Akune-kun and Medaka both realize that, that's why that fight was continued and resulted in Zenkichi getting wrecked. He didn't just get beaten because he didn't want to fight her.

Beating her in the election wasn't just because he didn't want to hurt her with violence either. It was because that was the one way he had of possibly defeating her. Anshin'in-san said that to truly defeat your opponent, you have to get your opponent to acknowledge their defeat and you have to acknowledge it as your win. So Zenkichi chose the election as the one way to defeat her because she would acknowledge that. If he had tried to fight her physically, chances are high that he wouldn't have won that way and even if he had won, he wouldn't have acknowledged it as a win. It's not the kind of win he wanted.


You're right. The arc was about the way Medaka treats Zenkichi and them going through hardships to move past that but does it really matter that what motivated their change was Anshin'in-san manipulating the "main character" roles for her own goals? The events still happened. Their roles genuinely changed for them. I don't get why you're hung up on that aspect. Is it like I mentioned before? Did you want a more grand reason behind the entire development?

During the Medaka-Zenkichi hostage situation, I get what you're saying but it didn't look like Zenkichi was in any real danger. She just wanted to play with him. Yeah, he got sick in the end but they were in a hospital and they were confident enough to know that once she realized Zenkichi wasn't special she would be smart enough to release him and ask the doctors for help. As for why Hitomi didn't object, I don't know. Maybe she figured the same? Or tough love, maybe? Parents/people don't always behave the way you expect them to.

For the language battles, I don't know Japanese either but the manga does a decent job of explaining what's happening. Probably because even in Japan kanji isn't always the easiest to understand. So, yeah, probably an accurate comparison to how "right" can be heard and spelled the same way but have different meanings depending on context. Anyways, it may be hard to grasp exactly what's going on but you can still tell that the author put in a lot of thought and work into the manga, especially when you realize that he's playing with words to surprise native Japanese speakers in the first place.

That's why I like NisioIsin's writing. His hard work shows his different focus and perspectives. He didn't just make a battle manga, he made a puzzle with words, concepts, and tropes. He broke some of the conventions of Shounen which resulted in a bit of a mess but what we got from it was something good and different. It may not be the perfect manga but I'd rather it be good and different than a perfect copy of every other Shounen.

Sorry if I sound defensive or preachy. I just like the work and liked that someone was reading and discussing it. Hope you're still enjoying Medaka Box.
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Posted 12/27/17 , edited 12/27/17
In response to your edits.

She only put him through the wall. Remember, we're talking about a girl who can move a building if she wants. Plus, Zenkichi isn't exactly frail. She was holding back a lot to show him their difference.

There was no apology necessary. Zenkichi knew what he was getting into and who he was dealing with. Plus, I'd say his victory in the end and her kiss would be sufficient for Zenkichi.

Again, Medaka doesn't really expect a lot from her peers. If anything Zenkichi made it quite clear, it's the other way. Her peers were expecting way too much from her.

What Zenkichi meant when he said "Humans can be too right" was more along the lines of "You may be right but that doesn't mean it's right." Medaka was aiming for perfection for the sake of taking care of others. Normally, there's nothing wrong with that but in this case she was taking on everything for everyone. That's not a burden any single person should have. Even if they are perfect like Medaka. That's what Zenkichi meant.
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Posted 12/27/17 , edited 12/28/17
I went back and read the chapter again, apparently I was too tired when I read it and misunderstood. My perception at the time was that they really were in a manga. I thought Medaka desperately stopped Ashin'in from killing herself because it would have meant the end of the world. After reading it again I see she was just delusional and Medaka didn't want her to kill herself.

As for Medaka's fight with Zenkichi, she said her Forsaken God mode makes her weaker than her opponent, so it still doesn't make sense to me that she used it to show Zenkichi the gulf between them. If she was weaker than Zenkichi, then he should have been able to fight her equally, or defeat her, that's why it seems to me like he was likely holding back. Plus the fact that Medaka started the violence in that situation. If Zenkichi really wanted to antagonize her, why did he turn around and walk away? Why did he merely tell her she was wrong instead of telling her he planned to defeat her? Of course they didn't even show the fight, they just showed Zenkichi knocked out against the wall, so there was no hint of how much effort he put into the fight.

Zenkichi also had the ability to gain any skill he wanted, so he could have possibly defeated Medaka in a physical confrontation. I guess you can say he rejected having a skill made for him as unfair though.

I guess my qualm is that the hint that Medaka was trying to help Zenkichi grow stronger, and that Ashin'in was manipulating Zenkichi to go against Medaka, let Medaka off the hook too much. She had a real god complex, and Zenkichi was completely correct to confront her about it. I have a problem with Medaka saying "I was right to like him, but I had him in the wrong position, he's better as an enemy." I guess this is the Shounen aspect shining through. To me just because he disagreed with her shouldn't make him her enemy. He shouldn't have to fight her for her to consider his complaints. Then there's her line about "there's not a special person in this world". To me it shows she really didn't value him as much as she should have.
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Posted 12/27/17 , edited 12/28/17
The point of taking on Forsaken God mode was to show Zenkichi that she couldn't even beat him when she was weaker than him. She was giving him a handicap to further emphasize his lack of ability. I know it seems odd that she's weaker than him but still destroyed him but it's not impossible for a weaker opponent to win against a stronger one. It happens. Especially in fiction.

Yeah, the fact that they didn't show us the fight kind of leaves us guessing to what happened during it but from the other's reactions we can assume that Zenkichi did do his best and Medaka was just overwhelmingly better.

As for why he only stated she was wrong and then started to walk, that's because it wasn't his intention to fight her in that moment. He walked in to declare himself as an enemy. She immediately acknowledged that as a declaration of war and decided to attack. Now yeah, that's somewhat unfair but "All's fair in love and war", right? He declared war, it was his mistake to assume that he'd be safe to just walk out. Plus, as we later see, that attack was so that he would come back stronger. It's what he needed to be a better enemy. It may not sit well with you but it still makes sense to me and even Zenkichi understands that it was his own mistake that he didn't think fully through.

You're right, he was offered any ability he wanted no matter how impossible so, yeah, he probably could have gained something like a reverse Forsaken God mode. Something that could have made him physically stronger than her no matter what. But there were a number of reasons why he didn't choose something like that. He still got a skill just not one like that for the following reasons.

First, as we already witnessed, it's not strength alone he would have needed to beat her. She was already using a handicapped state that made her weaker than him and he still lost.

Second, Anshin'in-san was trying to make him a 'main character' so she told him to avoid overpowering himself so he wouldn't become a 'final boss' character. According to that logic, he would lose to Medaka because the main character always beats the final boss. And he followed that logic, not because he believed he was in a manga but rather because he undeniably did recognize Medaka as something like a 'main character'.

Third, he was recommended to choose an ability that matches him. Zenkichi's a hard worker, not gifted like the others or blessed by fate in any way. As long as he can work hard, he can usually overcome whatever's in his way. But he can't change fate/destiny/coincidences and that's why he often comes short when facing off against people blessed like Medaka and the other Abnormals who have unbelievable Luck stats and fate on their side that allows them to do some impossible things. So, to counter that he asked for Devil Style, an ability that makes other's Luck and fortune no better than his. It makes things fair and possible for him to win by his own effort now. Devil's Style was perfect for him. Not a guarantee but much better suited to his preferences.


In the end, yeah, it seems like you just have an issue with Shounen. Basically, shounen always devolve into fights to get their points across. And then once the fight's over, enemies suddenly become friends or are forgiven because they finally recognize each other's point of view. The series is aware of this, that's why they made a big deal over the difference in how Medaka treats her enemies versus how she treats Zenkichi. And why Zenkichi became her enemy in the end. Yeah, it seems odd but that's shounen.

"In this world there is no such thing as a special person." That line, to me, wasn't so much a diss to Zenkichi but one of her outlooks on life. Some people think that only special people can do outstanding things, but to Medaka, it's more so that those special people don't exist. Outstanding things are just done by people who work for them. And to her, Zenkichi isn't special, he's someone who works hard to do outstanding things. It was more a compliment in my eyes.

"Hitoyoshi Zenkichi is a material that resonates when you hit it. At the very least, I wasn't wrong to like that man. But I carelessly left him somewhere I shouldn't have." She says that shortly afterward. To me that was proof that she recognized his hardworking nature and she regrets not letting him develop properly. She does value him but "Zenkichi is more interesting as an enemy." She wants to continue valuing him once he's developed further as an enemy.
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Posted 12/29/17 , edited 12/29/17
I have a feeling it's going to be a while before I finish the final 34 chapters, after I binged the first 158. I'm hooked on the Steins:Gate Visual Novel now.
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Posted 12/29/17 , edited 12/30/17
That's cool. I bought Steins;Gate, too but I haven't made much progress on that one. I'll get around to it someday.
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Posted 12/31/17 , edited 12/31/17
I have a theory about the ending, it's nothing deep, more of a question left unanswered. I'm placing it in a spoiler for anyone who hasn't finished the manga.

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Posted 1/1/18 , edited 1/1/18
Hmm...



I mean, it might be possible if the author felt like setting it up that way but given only what's presented in the manga, it's really hard to make that a solid. Sorry.
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