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Post Reply NINE YEARS AGO Al Gore Predicted North Pole Would Be Completely Ice Free by Today
scye27 
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Posted 12/31/17 , edited 12/31/17
All of us want clean water, clean air, and food to eat. We should all be supporting efforts to ensure that these basic human needs are met. I see the climate change debate everywhere, and it goes nowhere every time. Meanwhile, we all have a common goal. There are so many great projects out there right now working on cleaning things up (my favorites being Mr. Trash Wheel and vertical farming). With our support, they will continue to grow, and I think a cleaner future is possible.
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Posted 12/31/17 , edited 12/31/17

Rujikin wrote:


Cardamom_Ginger wrote:

I'm fairly certain that there's truth to both man-made influences, as well as us still coming out of the last ice age, but people like Al Gore degrade everything into a joke. Wild claims that fail to come to fruition time and again instill great cynicism. Still, most people can agree that our climates are changing, yet constantly shitting on each other over exactly how doesn't help a damned thing.


We've probably sped it up by 50 years at most but all that has happened was suppose to happen anyways. Then one super volcano will erupt and send us into another ice age while people clamor for more global warming. Were like ants swimming in a river that is the climate.

I wish people would stop buying into these climate change red herrings and focus on real environmental issues. I've had multiple people tell me that ground water depletion, water pollution, our waste problem, and polluting the oceans doesn't matter since climate change is going to doom us and we have to do something about it. Real problems that are solvable now are being ignored for a "problem" even the "experts" say we can't do shit about anyways and who seem to be wrong all the time so who knows if anything they say is right.


I don't think that is an entirely fair way of discussing things. We are talking about more hurricanes, more fires, more famine, more disease, etc. "Speeding it up" means more people die and more money is lost cleaning up after it, and it means that when we eventually reach the time where we would be seeing the same thing, it will be far beyond where it would have been otherwise.

And that is all assuming that this is an accurate representation of how man has affected climate change, which from what I've seen, it is not.

Might we see some huge disaster which greatly affects climate? Maybe. Maybe it won't happen for 1,000 years. But whether it is 100 years or 10,000 years, should we not try to improve the well being of people who are around now? There is no logic in saying "Who cares if thousands of people are dying, humans are going to be extinct in 5,000 years anyways."
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Posted 12/31/17 , edited 1/4/18

scye27 wrote:

All of us want clean water, clean air, and food to eat. We should all be supporting efforts to ensure that these basic human needs are met. I see the climate change debate everywhere, and it goes nowhere every time. Meanwhile, we all have a common goal. There are so many great projects out there right now working on cleaning things up (my favorites being Mr. Trash Wheel and vertical farming). With our support, they will continue to grow, and I think a cleaner future is possible.


Mr Trash wheel? I've not heard of this. Link plz?

P.S. North America, Europe, and South America are all food independent and not over stressing their environment. Its the rest of the world that has the population issues.


sundin13 wrote:


Rujikin wrote:


Cardamom_Ginger wrote:

I'm fairly certain that there's truth to both man-made influences, as well as us still coming out of the last ice age, but people like Al Gore degrade everything into a joke. Wild claims that fail to come to fruition time and again instill great cynicism. Still, most people can agree that our climates are changing, yet constantly shitting on each other over exactly how doesn't help a damned thing.


We've probably sped it up by 50 years at most but all that has happened was suppose to happen anyways. Then one super volcano will erupt and send us into another ice age while people clamor for more global warming. Were like ants swimming in a river that is the climate.

I wish people would stop buying into these climate change red herrings and focus on real environmental issues. I've had multiple people tell me that ground water depletion, water pollution, our waste problem, and polluting the oceans doesn't matter since climate change is going to doom us and we have to do something about it. Real problems that are solvable now are being ignored for a "problem" even the "experts" say we can't do shit about anyways and who seem to be wrong all the time so who knows if anything they say is right.


I don't think that is an entirely fair way of discussing things. We are talking about more hurricanes, more fires, more famine, more disease, etc. "Speeding it up" means more people die and more money is lost cleaning up after it, and it means that when we eventually reach the time where we would be seeing the same thing, it will be far beyond where it would have been otherwise.

And that is all assuming that this is an accurate representation of how man has affected climate change, which from what I've seen, it is not.

Might we see some huge disaster which greatly affects climate? Maybe. Maybe it won't happen for 1,000 years. But whether it is 100 years or 10,000 years, should we not try to improve the well being of people who are around now? There is no logic in saying "Who cares if thousands of people are dying, humans are going to be extinct in 5,000 years anyways."


More hurricanes? First off our records dont even go back that far and nowadays we are able to identify hurricanes out in the middle of no where when before you only knew about them a short distance away from the shore. Secondly the claim is that warmer waters cause more hurricanes so that means the number of hurricanes has increased since the last ice age. Dont be blaming everything on carbon.

Crop yields have increased the problem is Asian and African populations keep increasing. Still not climate changes fault. Actually plants are using less water because the increased carbon levels are requiring less breathing from the air collection parts on the underside of the leaf.

We get more diseases from more humans moving around the world easily. We do however have better ways to cure the bad ones.

Mans biggest contribution to Earth is Terra forming giant forests into concrete and asphalt jungles or more farm land. One. That I am trying to reverse a little bit with my acres of land.

We should. That's why we need to keep water in the wells, keep that water clean, and keep the oceans clean. I can guarantee you 100% that clean water will help people 10,000 years from now. I cannot say with even a guess if decreasing the carbon level a hundredth of a percent will do anything.
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Posted 12/31/17 , edited 1/4/18

Rujikin wrote:

1) More hurricanes? First off our records dont even go back that far and nowadays we are able to identify hurricanes out in the middle of no where when before you only knew about them a short distance away from the shore. Secondly the claim is that warmer waters cause more hurricanes so that means the number of hurricanes has increased since the last ice age. Dont be blaming everything on carbon.

2) Crop yields have increased the problem is Asian and African populations keep increasing. Still not climate changes fault. Actually plants are using less water because the increased carbon levels are requiring less breathing from the air collection parts on the underside of the leaf.

3) We get more diseases from more humans moving around the world easily. We do however have better ways to cure the bad ones.

4) Mans biggest contribution to Earth is Terra forming giant forests into concrete and asphalt jungles or more farm land. One. That I am trying to reverse a little bit with my acres of land.

5) We should. That's why we need to keep water in the wells, keep that water clean, and keep the oceans clean. I can guarantee you 100% that clean water will help people 10,000 years from now. I cannot say with even a guess if decreasing the carbon level a hundredth of a percent will do anything.


1) I'm not sure what argument you are trying to make. The problems associated with hurricanes aren't simply based on statistical frequency data but the science behind what is actually happening through the creation of a hurricane. Further, I didn't blame everything on carbon? What are you even talking about?

Using physics to predict the effect of climate change on hurricanes:
http://www.dl.begellhouse.com/references/1bb331655c289a0a,55c1d3cc5663150e,5245c6727292c57f.html?year=2016


The known sensitivity of the atmosphere to increasing temperature differences implies that over the coming decades, with global warming, there will be corresponding effects on the intensity, frequency, size, and the geographical distribution of hurricanes.


2) Climate change leads to drought which tends to kill plants. This will obviously affect different parts of the globe differently.

Climate Change, Drought, and Famine in Kenya. A Socio-Ecological Analysis:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Steven_Engler2/publication/282705281_Climate_Change_Drought_and_Famine_in_Kenya_A_Socio-Ecological_Analysis/links/561bfb4d08aea80367243547/Climate-Change-Drought-and-Famine-in-Kenya-A-Socio-Ecological-Analysis.pdf


Our analysis found that due to a relatively high social and environmental vulnerability in Kenya, even minor shifts in climatic conditions can show major effects on food security. At least since 1960 the temperatures in most parts of Kenya rose, and simultaneously, precipitation showed decreasing trends. Additionally, rainfall has shown a widening of the standard deviation in recent years. The consequences are food
scarcities on a general basis and famines that return much more frequently in recent years


3) We also see things like mosquitoes and ticks increasing their habitat range and diseases such as malaria spreading beyond their typical range.

Estimated Effects of Projected Climate Change on the Basic Reproductive Number of the Lyme Disease Vector Ixodes scapularis
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4050516/


Climate warming may have co-driven the emergence of Lyme disease in northeastern North America, and in the future may drive substantial disease spread into new geographic regions and increase tick-borne disease risk where climate is currently suitable. Our findings highlight the potential for climate change to have profound effects on vectors and vector-borne diseases, and the need to refocus efforts to understand these effects.


4) Neat.

5) Cool.

PS: Obviously there are a lot of sources for each of these things. I just picked one for each. If you want more, I can provide more.
scye27 
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Posted 12/31/17 , edited 1/1/18

Rujikin wrote:


scye27 wrote:

All of us want clean water, clean air, and food to eat. We should all be supporting efforts to ensure that these basic human needs are met. I see the climate change debate everywhere, and it goes nowhere every time. Meanwhile, we all have a common goal. There are so many great projects out there right now working on cleaning things up (my favorites being Mr. Trash Wheel and vertical farming). With our support, they will continue to grow, and I think a cleaner future is possible.


Mr Trash wheel? I've not heard of this. Link plz?




http://baltimorewaterfront.com/healthy-harbor/water-wheel/

Someone poses as Mr. Trash Wheel on the facebook page, which can be amusing at times.
https://m.facebook.com/mrtrashwheel/
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Posted 12/31/17 , edited 1/4/18

sundin13 wrote:


Rujikin wrote:

1) More hurricanes? First off our records dont even go back that far and nowadays we are able to identify hurricanes out in the middle of no where when before you only knew about them a short distance away from the shore. Secondly the claim is that warmer waters cause more hurricanes so that means the number of hurricanes has increased since the last ice age. Dont be blaming everything on carbon.

2) Crop yields have increased the problem is Asian and African populations keep increasing. Still not climate changes fault. Actually plants are using less water because the increased carbon levels are requiring less breathing from the air collection parts on the underside of the leaf.

3) We get more diseases from more humans moving around the world easily. We do however have better ways to cure the bad ones.

4) Mans biggest contribution to Earth is Terra forming giant forests into concrete and asphalt jungles or more farm land. One. That I am trying to reverse a little bit with my acres of land.

5) We should. That's why we need to keep water in the wells, keep that water clean, and keep the oceans clean. I can guarantee you 100% that clean water will help people 10,000 years from now. I cannot say with even a guess if decreasing the carbon level a hundredth of a percent will do anything.


1) I'm not sure what argument you are trying to make. The problems associated with hurricanes aren't simply based on statistical frequency data but the science behind what is actually happening through the creation of a hurricane. Further, I didn't blame everything on carbon? What are you even talking about?

Using physics to predict the effect of climate change on hurricanes:
http://www.dl.begellhouse.com/references/1bb331655c289a0a,55c1d3cc5663150e,5245c6727292c57f.html?year=2016


The known sensitivity of the atmosphere to increasing temperature differences implies that over the coming decades, with global warming, there will be corresponding effects on the intensity, frequency, size, and the geographical distribution of hurricanes.


2) Climate change leads to drought which tends to kill plants. This will obviously affect different parts of the globe differently.

Climate Change, Drought, and Famine in Kenya. A Socio-Ecological Analysis:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Steven_Engler2/publication/282705281_Climate_Change_Drought_and_Famine_in_Kenya_A_Socio-Ecological_Analysis/links/561bfb4d08aea80367243547/Climate-Change-Drought-and-Famine-in-Kenya-A-Socio-Ecological-Analysis.pdf


Our analysis found that due to a relatively high social and environmental vulnerability in Kenya, even minor shifts in climatic conditions can show major effects on food security. At least since 1960 the temperatures in most parts of Kenya rose, and simultaneously, precipitation showed decreasing trends. Additionally, rainfall has shown a widening of the standard deviation in recent years. The consequences are food
scarcities on a general basis and famines that return much more frequently in recent years


3) We also see things like mosquitoes and ticks increasing their habitat range and diseases such as malaria spreading beyond their typical range.

Estimated Effects of Projected Climate Change on the Basic Reproductive Number of the Lyme Disease Vector Ixodes scapularis
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4050516/


Climate warming may have co-driven the emergence of Lyme disease in northeastern North America, and in the future may drive substantial disease spread into new geographic regions and increase tick-borne disease risk where climate is currently suitable. Our findings highlight the potential for climate change to have profound effects on vectors and vector-borne diseases, and the need to refocus efforts to understand these effects.


4) Neat.

5) Cool.

PS: Obviously there are a lot of sources for each of these things. I just picked one for each. If you want more, I can provide more.


1) Hum? You mean those same physics they used to predict Florida would be underwater now? Methinks there they are underestimating the earth and trying to blind you with science you don't understand. They have already been proven wrong multiple times by time so why should I listen to the boy who keeps calling wolf.

2) And the Sahara was once a giant rainforest but that mean old climate change we caused changed all of that... oh wait I am now learning that we had nothing to do with it. Actually if we have increased temps we have increased evaporation, increased green house effect, and increased rain along with a change in wind patterns as has been happening on Earth for HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF YEARS. Remember the Sahara being a rain forest, yeah.

3) This surprises you? Where I live used to be under a glacier, then it turned into a forest, then a swamp forest, then into farmland, and I've turned it back into swamp forest. Ticks were not always native to my land but 100% natural climate change made them migrate up here. They will probably migrate further north as the Earth continues to warm up as has been happening for the past 10,000 years. Well unless we get a super volcano that plunges us into another ice age. How is this evidence of anything besides the Earth doing what it normally does.

5) Thats it? We could both agree we need clean water and don't even want to write a sentence worth about it? How sad.
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Posted 12/31/17 , edited 1/1/18

scye27 wrote:


Rujikin wrote:


scye27 wrote:

All of us want clean water, clean air, and food to eat. We should all be supporting efforts to ensure that these basic human needs are met. I see the climate change debate everywhere, and it goes nowhere every time. Meanwhile, we all have a common goal. There are so many great projects out there right now working on cleaning things up (my favorites being Mr. Trash Wheel and vertical farming). With our support, they will continue to grow, and I think a cleaner future is possible.


Mr Trash wheel? I've not heard of this. Link plz?




http://baltimorewaterfront.com/healthy-harbor/water-wheel/

Someone poses as Mr. Trash Wheel on the facebook page, which can be amusing at times.
https://m.facebook.com/mrtrashwheel/


Thats pretty neat. I wonder what it costs to build it and maintain it. Seems to work well I wonder if its cost efficient.
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Posted 12/31/17 , edited 1/4/18

Rujikin wrote:


sundin13 wrote:


Rujikin wrote:

1) More hurricanes? First off our records dont even go back that far and nowadays we are able to identify hurricanes out in the middle of no where when before you only knew about them a short distance away from the shore. Secondly the claim is that warmer waters cause more hurricanes so that means the number of hurricanes has increased since the last ice age. Dont be blaming everything on carbon.

2) Crop yields have increased the problem is Asian and African populations keep increasing. Still not climate changes fault. Actually plants are using less water because the increased carbon levels are requiring less breathing from the air collection parts on the underside of the leaf.

3) We get more diseases from more humans moving around the world easily. We do however have better ways to cure the bad ones.

4) Mans biggest contribution to Earth is Terra forming giant forests into concrete and asphalt jungles or more farm land. One. That I am trying to reverse a little bit with my acres of land.

5) We should. That's why we need to keep water in the wells, keep that water clean, and keep the oceans clean. I can guarantee you 100% that clean water will help people 10,000 years from now. I cannot say with even a guess if decreasing the carbon level a hundredth of a percent will do anything.


1) I'm not sure what argument you are trying to make. The problems associated with hurricanes aren't simply based on statistical frequency data but the science behind what is actually happening through the creation of a hurricane. Further, I didn't blame everything on carbon? What are you even talking about?

Using physics to predict the effect of climate change on hurricanes:
http://www.dl.begellhouse.com/references/1bb331655c289a0a,55c1d3cc5663150e,5245c6727292c57f.html?year=2016


The known sensitivity of the atmosphere to increasing temperature differences implies that over the coming decades, with global warming, there will be corresponding effects on the intensity, frequency, size, and the geographical distribution of hurricanes.


2) Climate change leads to drought which tends to kill plants. This will obviously affect different parts of the globe differently.

Climate Change, Drought, and Famine in Kenya. A Socio-Ecological Analysis:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Steven_Engler2/publication/282705281_Climate_Change_Drought_and_Famine_in_Kenya_A_Socio-Ecological_Analysis/links/561bfb4d08aea80367243547/Climate-Change-Drought-and-Famine-in-Kenya-A-Socio-Ecological-Analysis.pdf


Our analysis found that due to a relatively high social and environmental vulnerability in Kenya, even minor shifts in climatic conditions can show major effects on food security. At least since 1960 the temperatures in most parts of Kenya rose, and simultaneously, precipitation showed decreasing trends. Additionally, rainfall has shown a widening of the standard deviation in recent years. The consequences are food
scarcities on a general basis and famines that return much more frequently in recent years


3) We also see things like mosquitoes and ticks increasing their habitat range and diseases such as malaria spreading beyond their typical range.

Estimated Effects of Projected Climate Change on the Basic Reproductive Number of the Lyme Disease Vector Ixodes scapularis
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4050516/


Climate warming may have co-driven the emergence of Lyme disease in northeastern North America, and in the future may drive substantial disease spread into new geographic regions and increase tick-borne disease risk where climate is currently suitable. Our findings highlight the potential for climate change to have profound effects on vectors and vector-borne diseases, and the need to refocus efforts to understand these effects.


4) Neat.

5) Cool.

PS: Obviously there are a lot of sources for each of these things. I just picked one for each. If you want more, I can provide more.


1) Hum? You mean those same physics they used to predict Florida would be underwater now? Methinks there they are underestimating the earth and trying to blind you with science you don't understand. They have already been proven wrong multiple times by time so why should I listen to the boy who keeps calling wolf.

2) And the Sahara was once a giant rainforest but that mean old climate change we caused changed all of that... oh wait I am now learning that we had nothing to do with it. Actually if we have increased temps we have increased evaporation, increased green house effect, and increased rain along with a change in wind patterns as has been happening on Earth for HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF YEARS. Remember the Sahara being a rain forest, yeah.

3) This surprises you? Where I live used to be under a glacier, then it turned into a forest, then a swamp forest, then into farmland, and I've turned it back into swamp forest. Ticks were not always native to my land but 100% natural climate change made them migrate up here. They will probably migrate further north as the Earth continues to warm up as has been happening for the past 10,000 years. Well unless we get a super volcano that plunges us into another ice age. How is this evidence of anything besides the Earth doing what it normally does.

5) Thats it? We could both agree we need clean water and don't even want to write a sentence worth about it? How sad.


1) The same physics that define the laws of planetary motion and determine how a gas will act when certain variables are changed. Pulling out mystery sources that may or may not state something incorrectly from god knows how long ago doesn't invalidate every single paper which draws from physics in the future.

2) Yeah, and I'm sure the Sahara turning into a desert fucked a lot of things up. What is your point? If you want to argue about the human influence on climate change, you've got an uphill battle, but if you want to argue that climate change doesn't affect food availability, you've got a cliff (and if you want to argue the first point, your moving the goal posts).

3) That should be my question to you: This surprises you? I said "Climate change will lead to an increase in some diseases" and you go "NUH UH". Then I post evidence and you go "No duh". Why am I suddenly the idiot here? You were the one acting like climate change had no effect on disease.

You kind of seem to be jumping back and forth between "climate change isn't having an impact" and "climate change is having an impact but humans don't have anything to do with it". Pick one. I'm not going to argue in circles waiting for you to find a point that you actually stand by.

5) Yeah, because of course I agree that clean water is good, but you are just doing the whole "You should ignore the bad thing you are talking about and focus on the bad thing I am talking about". It is nothing but deflection. Yelling "Clean water" doesn't contribute anything to this conversation.
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Posted 12/31/17 , edited 1/4/18

sundin13 wrote:


Rujikin wrote:


sundin13 wrote:


Rujikin wrote:

1) More hurricanes? First off our records dont even go back that far and nowadays we are able to identify hurricanes out in the middle of no where when before you only knew about them a short distance away from the shore. Secondly the claim is that warmer waters cause more hurricanes so that means the number of hurricanes has increased since the last ice age. Dont be blaming everything on carbon.

2) Crop yields have increased the problem is Asian and African populations keep increasing. Still not climate changes fault. Actually plants are using less water because the increased carbon levels are requiring less breathing from the air collection parts on the underside of the leaf.

3) We get more diseases from more humans moving around the world easily. We do however have better ways to cure the bad ones.

4) Mans biggest contribution to Earth is Terra forming giant forests into concrete and asphalt jungles or more farm land. One. That I am trying to reverse a little bit with my acres of land.

5) We should. That's why we need to keep water in the wells, keep that water clean, and keep the oceans clean. I can guarantee you 100% that clean water will help people 10,000 years from now. I cannot say with even a guess if decreasing the carbon level a hundredth of a percent will do anything.


1) I'm not sure what argument you are trying to make. The problems associated with hurricanes aren't simply based on statistical frequency data but the science behind what is actually happening through the creation of a hurricane. Further, I didn't blame everything on carbon? What are you even talking about?

Using physics to predict the effect of climate change on hurricanes:
http://www.dl.begellhouse.com/references/1bb331655c289a0a,55c1d3cc5663150e,5245c6727292c57f.html?year=2016


The known sensitivity of the atmosphere to increasing temperature differences implies that over the coming decades, with global warming, there will be corresponding effects on the intensity, frequency, size, and the geographical distribution of hurricanes.


2) Climate change leads to drought which tends to kill plants. This will obviously affect different parts of the globe differently.

Climate Change, Drought, and Famine in Kenya. A Socio-Ecological Analysis:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Steven_Engler2/publication/282705281_Climate_Change_Drought_and_Famine_in_Kenya_A_Socio-Ecological_Analysis/links/561bfb4d08aea80367243547/Climate-Change-Drought-and-Famine-in-Kenya-A-Socio-Ecological-Analysis.pdf


Our analysis found that due to a relatively high social and environmental vulnerability in Kenya, even minor shifts in climatic conditions can show major effects on food security. At least since 1960 the temperatures in most parts of Kenya rose, and simultaneously, precipitation showed decreasing trends. Additionally, rainfall has shown a widening of the standard deviation in recent years. The consequences are food
scarcities on a general basis and famines that return much more frequently in recent years


3) We also see things like mosquitoes and ticks increasing their habitat range and diseases such as malaria spreading beyond their typical range.

Estimated Effects of Projected Climate Change on the Basic Reproductive Number of the Lyme Disease Vector Ixodes scapularis
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4050516/


Climate warming may have co-driven the emergence of Lyme disease in northeastern North America, and in the future may drive substantial disease spread into new geographic regions and increase tick-borne disease risk where climate is currently suitable. Our findings highlight the potential for climate change to have profound effects on vectors and vector-borne diseases, and the need to refocus efforts to understand these effects.


4) Neat.

5) Cool.

PS: Obviously there are a lot of sources for each of these things. I just picked one for each. If you want more, I can provide more.


1) Hum? You mean those same physics they used to predict Florida would be underwater now? Methinks there they are underestimating the earth and trying to blind you with science you don't understand. They have already been proven wrong multiple times by time so why should I listen to the boy who keeps calling wolf.

2) And the Sahara was once a giant rainforest but that mean old climate change we caused changed all of that... oh wait I am now learning that we had nothing to do with it. Actually if we have increased temps we have increased evaporation, increased green house effect, and increased rain along with a change in wind patterns as has been happening on Earth for HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF YEARS. Remember the Sahara being a rain forest, yeah.

3) This surprises you? Where I live used to be under a glacier, then it turned into a forest, then a swamp forest, then into farmland, and I've turned it back into swamp forest. Ticks were not always native to my land but 100% natural climate change made them migrate up here. They will probably migrate further north as the Earth continues to warm up as has been happening for the past 10,000 years. Well unless we get a super volcano that plunges us into another ice age. How is this evidence of anything besides the Earth doing what it normally does.

5) Thats it? We could both agree we need clean water and don't even want to write a sentence worth about it? How sad.


1) The same physics that define the laws of planetary motion and determine how a gas will act when certain variables are changed. Pulling out mystery sources that may or may not state something incorrectly from god knows how long ago doesn't invalidate every single paper which draws from physics in the future.

2) Yeah, and I'm sure the Sahara turning into a desert fucked a lot of things up. What is your point? If you want to argue about the human influence on climate change, you've got an uphill battle, but if you want to argue that climate change doesn't affect food availability, you've got a cliff (and if you want to argue the first point, your moving the goal posts).

3) That should be my question to you: This surprises you? I said "Climate change will lead to an increase in some diseases" and you go "NUH UH". Then I post evidence and you go "No duh". Why am I suddenly the idiot here? You were the one acting like climate change had no effect on disease.

You kind of seem to be jumping back and forth between "climate change isn't having an impact" and "climate change is having an impact but humans don't have anything to do with it". Pick one. I'm not going to argue in circles waiting for you to find a point that you actually stand by.

5) Yeah, because of course I agree that clean water is good, but you are just doing the whole "You should ignore the bad thing you are talking about and focus on the bad thing I am talking about". It is nothing but deflection. Yelling "Clean water" doesn't contribute anything to this conversation.


I should probably say human caused climate change. to differentiate it. The Earth's climate is always in a state of changing with or without us.

1) We are still learning new things about physics. We in no way know all of it nor how it all interacts. Planetary climatic physics is also a whole other beast. They just learned that some water in the ocean does not move. Some of the water has been in the same spot for thousands or tens of thousands of years. They used to think that area moved but upon further study it was just currents that move around it. To claim we can accurately simulate an entire planetary climate is sheer arrogance and ignorance. All these models use certain assumptions and shortcuts because processing such vast amounts of data would take so long it would make the data useless by the time it finishes.

2) My point is climate change is a natural part of Earth's natural cycle. Its always changing and that is what makes it so livable. Humans haven't had much effect on climate change. Oh but it does have an effect. The warming increases the growing season and makes formerly unproductive fields productive. Us adding more carbon into the atmosphere decreases plant's water needs and helps them grow faster http://climate.virginia.edu/vca/vca22_2/c0222_2.html

3) I should have been clearer. Human climate change is not having any significant effect on diseases. Increased global human movements are having a huge effect though. Every disease is now a global disease and not localized. Though we have also cured a great many diseases so we are offsetting such things as well.

5) The bad thing is undrinkable water. Hell even if a DOOMSDAY climate scenario happened and it destroyed all of civilization then the survivors would be worrying about, you guessed it, clean water not how much carbon is in the atmosphere.
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Posted 12/31/17 , edited 12/31/17

Rujikin wrote:

I should probably say human caused climate change. to differentiate it. The Earth's climate is always in a state of changing with or without us.


Since literally everything in this discussion comes down to this singular point:

https://www.ipcc.ch/publications_and_data/ar4/wg1/en/ch9s9-7.html

At the end of the day, what you are saying is "I disagree with the preponderance of evidence". At current, the evidence overwhelmingly suggests that humans play a role in climate change. To deny that is not to present a stronger conclusion, it is to simply close your eyes to what is there.

EDIT: And it is worth noting that the evidence of anthropogenic climate change has grown since that report.
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Posted 12/31/17 , edited 1/4/18

sundin13 wrote:


Rujikin wrote:

I should probably say human caused climate change. to differentiate it. The Earth's climate is always in a state of changing with or without us.


Since literally everything in this discussion comes down to this singular point:

https://www.ipcc.ch/publications_and_data/ar4/wg1/en/ch9s9-7.html

At the end of the day, what you are saying is "I disagree with the preponderance of evidence". At current, the evidence overwhelmingly suggests that humans play a role in climate change. To deny that is not to present a stronger conclusion, it is to simply close your eyes to what is there.

EDIT: And it is worth noting that the evidence of anthropogenic climate change has grown since that report.


If I stand on a scale and have an ant on my shoulder then that ant is contributing to my weight. Obviously we need to be worried about ants changing peoples weights while standing on a scale and throughly investigate everyone to ensure no ants are adding to a person's weight.

Humanities effect on the climate is like an ant standing on your shoulder. I cannot deny it plays a role but its so minor its not worth noting.
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Posted 12/31/17 , edited 1/1/18

May201m wrote:

Funny thing is people also believe this nut job.


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Posted 12/31/17 , edited 1/1/18

dhgshdgds wrote:


May201m wrote:

Funny thing is people also believe this nut job.




Oh god you brought back my PTSD!!!







p.s. joking.
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Posted 1/1/18 , edited 1/1/18

Rujikin wrote:


sundin13 wrote:


Rujikin wrote:

I should probably say human caused climate change. to differentiate it. The Earth's climate is always in a state of changing with or without us.


Since literally everything in this discussion comes down to this singular point:

https://www.ipcc.ch/publications_and_data/ar4/wg1/en/ch9s9-7.html

At the end of the day, what you are saying is "I disagree with the preponderance of evidence". At current, the evidence overwhelmingly suggests that humans play a role in climate change. To deny that is not to present a stronger conclusion, it is to simply close your eyes to what is there.

EDIT: And it is worth noting that the evidence of anthropogenic climate change has grown since that report.


If I stand on a scale and have an ant on my shoulder then that ant is contributing to my weight. Obviously we need to be worried about ants changing peoples weights while standing on a scale and throughly investigate everyone to ensure no ants are adding to a person's weight.

Humanities effect on the climate is like an ant standing on your shoulder. I cannot deny it plays a role but its so minor its not worth noting.


To act like man's impact on the planet is comparable to an ant is the height of naivety, and it is certainly not an opinion actually backed by science or logic. When man holds the capability to instantaneously destroy most of the life on this planet, to act like our impact is insignificant stands much closer to a theological viewpoint than a logical one.
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