First  Prev  1  2  Next  Last
Post Reply #MeToo, Where's the Line?
qwueri 
25366 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
32 / M / TN
Offline
Posted 1/14/18 , edited 1/14/18
I think alot of good has come out of the #MeToo movement. Guys like Harvey Weinstein and Roger Ailes who abuse their positions to sexually harass women and silence their victims certainly do not deserve to be in positions of authority. There should absolutely be rules in a workplace environment where employees should feel safe from the prospect of being harassed by their coworkers and superiors. Likewise, when a woman clearly rejects a guy's advances he should respect that, and a guy should have enough respect to not be groping random women.

But is it really okay for the #MeToo movement to extend into dating? The dating scene is complicated, and it seems like everyone places their lines at different places. Expectations vary wildly, and cues are not always picked up upon.

In a recent story to come out comedian Aziz Ansari has been accused of sexual assault for missing "physical cues" and being more sexually aggressive than his date felt comfortable with after they had gone back to his apartment.

She tried to verbally communicate her disinterest: “I said I don’t want to feel forced because then I’ll hate you, and I’d rather not hate you,” she said. Ansari appeared to understand at first, but soon continued his overtures. She said he only appeared to get the message when she emphatically said ‘no’ after he’d bent her over in front of a large mirror. He suggested they “just chill” on his couch.

At that point, said Grace, “It really hit me that I was violated . . . I felt really emotional all at once when we sat down there. That that whole experience was actually horrible.”

Afterward, Ansari called her a car. Grace said she cried the whole trip home. She texted Ansari after the date, explaining how uncomfortable she’d felt: “Last night might’ve been fun for you, but it wasn’t for me. When we got back to your place, you ignored clear non-verbal cues; you kept going with advances. You had to have noticed I was uncomfortable.” She explained she was telling him this so that “maybe the next girl doesn‘t have to cry on the ride home.” Ansari reportedly responded, “Clearly, I misread things in the moment and I’m truly sorry.”

“I believe that I was taken advantage of by Aziz,” Grace told babe. “I was not listened to and ignored. It was by far the worst experience with a man I’ve ever had.”

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2018/01/aziz-ansari-accused-of-sexual-misconduct

Ansari certainly sounds like a grabby putz from the woman's description, but is he really guilty of sexual assault? He missed what she expected to be physical cues of her disinterest after going back to his apartment, and stopped when she said, "No." Does miscommunication and fumbled sexual advances in a date's apartment constitute sexual assault? Is this really appropriate to air this kind of shitty date details to the public in an atmosphere that consumes the career of any man accused?

Condaleezza Rice in an interview today expressed her opinion on the #MeToo movement.

"Let's not turn women into snowflakes. Let's not infantilize women," Rice insisted during an interview with CNN's David Axelrod on "The Axe Files," which airs at 7 ET Saturday night.

http://www.cnn.com/2018/01/13/politics/rice-metoo-axe-files-cnntv/index.html
Should this also apply to women in dating? Should there be an expectation for any man or woman who feels uncomfortable to clearly state their disinterest and leave an uncomfortable situation? At what point is an unwanted sexual advance not worthy of being brought to the public or damaging to a person's career?

As always, please keep this discussion respectful.
3871 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
Offline
Posted 1/14/18 , edited 1/14/18
228 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
Offline
Posted 1/14/18 , edited 1/14/18
There isn't a line there is only outage and not outraged.
12147 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
21 / M / Winnipeg, MB.
Offline
Posted 1/14/18 , edited 1/14/18
I really like #MeToo (as much as I can like any movement that has a hashtag in its title, anyway) and what it's done. It's great that after years of people like Quinn and Sarkesian at the front of the movement to the point where they were invited to speak before the UN for some goddamn reason, mainstream feminism has centered itself back on real tangible problems and surprisingly large ones at that.

With that being said, I'm pretty split on whether or not this counts as assault.

On one hand, yes, Ansari physically and presumably forcefully bent her over against her consent, which is pretty much exactly the kind of behavior the whole movement has been set out to expose and punish. Ansari should not have done that at all.

On the other hand, I don't think it's up for debate that this woman's expectations are more than a bit too high. On some basic level everyone should be expected to read people, but if you expect them to recognize "non-verbal cues" on the spot you shouldn't really hold it against them if they do not pick up on them immediately. I mean, her exact words were "non-verbal cues" and then she goes to say that she was "not listened to", what should he listen to then? Your inner thoughts? The guy clearly stopped when you told him no, so I think the lesson here is to lead with that when you want to refuse something. This woman is (hopefully) an adult so she should by all means be able to communicate verbally.

On the other, other hand, the fact that you can speak verbally goes both ways. If a man is unsure whether or not a woman is comfortable with something, especially something sexual, he should by all means be able to ask her. I know this because I am a man and I always verbally ask a woman when trying to initiate any sort of sexual activity if she wants to, at least when I'm not in a committed relationship with someone I know well enough, but that doesn't really apply to this situation.

I guess the moral of the story is that people need to be able to fucking talk.
923 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
33 / M
Offline
Posted 1/14/18 , edited 1/14/18
I think this is a great development for feminism, and while Ansari did not do anything morally wrong, neither is he going to feel any heat from giving a woman a bad night. What he did isn't a crime, and he even apologized, which is great.

That said, I am sure there are other murkier gray areas, so I cannot be sure the #MeToo movement is an unalloyed good. However, everything I have seen so far has made it seem that way.
4516 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
Offline
Posted 1/14/18 , edited 1/15/18


false imprisonment , falsely accused, etc.. more than 3 years in prison

The guy can sue and take the woman and the prosecution to court .. don't just allow them "oops.. we made a mistake. sorry" and be done with it
5921 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
F / BuBbLeS!
Offline
Posted 1/14/18 , edited 1/15/18
all sickos should be brought to light and let the courts decide. I don't believe it's gone far enough because so many victims have still gone unheard (for whatever the reason). in my opinion, the waste these hollywood folks put towards cosmetic adjustments they should put towards these victims who need professional help. trust me, these sort of victims rarely make it on their own, they need professional help and sometimes medical assistance beyond this. as for the villains, if guilty should be treated as villains, and not the opposite effect in this sort of situation where they blame the victim to be the villain, thus why some never come forward, they just simply live with it in shame and/or fear.

as for dating, this whole "sign a piece of paper" before intercourse is beyond stupid, instead, let's educate people, let's, for once, use college education in a good way. educate what no means, teach them self defense classes (not tinkling on self or saying you have a disease), but really educating these folks about proper and not proper things and what if scenarios. and folks, don't get into a situation where you're too drunk and/or taking drinks from strangers, make your own drinks, pay attention to your surrounding and never party alone. in some cases, the newest fad is females taking gay guys out to bars, they aren't only not hit on, but they aren't attacked as much either. there's also the fact, know your date, the net is near infinite, you can't find everything free, but my goodness, having just a few details about a person these days and you aren't hidden on the net like you think you are. don't be afraid to date, but don't be trapped in a situation either. common sense is a great thing to have. get to know your date (talking to them on the phone or face chat, texting is sort of awkward and could come off with lies, voice and face are tell tale signs, not words on a screen). be safe out there folks, there are sickos on both sides of the fence and around the corner as well, be prepared, stay alert, and know your situation, date and escape plan if needed. know how to defend/protect yourself and don't get into awkward situations or conversations until you feel comfortable not them. there's no fail proof plan here, but a physical assault is easier to live with than a sexual assault situation, and well, we all know the outcome of murder.

just some helpful tips on research provided to such situations from probably watching one too many crime dramas in my day. stay safe but have fun, see something, say something and don't be afraid or ashamed to speak up, you ARE a victim not a villain. also, shame on those who fake cases against someone.
11316 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
36 / M
Offline
Posted 1/14/18 , edited 1/15/18
I don't care fr mob justice which is what most social justice seems synonymous with.

I think that dating, at least from my male perspective, and then further, relationships, carry too many costs and dangers these days for me to even consider entering the foray. There's rape and sexual assault accusations over the slightest thing, (and I'm one that was hit once by rumors by a third party not even involved of taking advantage of a woman that, truthfully, I just let spend the night on my sofa when she had no way home), and there's expectations that are unrealistic of what ideally men should or should not be (and often those are contradictory). I can't live up to the latter, and the former could ruin my life. Like as in ruin my life in every sense of the word.

And the funny thing is, I've also been sexually harassed by women I've refused. Just as the complaints are there of men who won't take no for an answer, the same is true of women. It's like men are just expected to want them.

Pregnancy is a huge scare. It's not that I wouldn't want children, but I couldn't bear to have children then, because the mother is tired of me leave me without access to them, OR, as I recently saw happen, a mother just left her newborn son with the father because raising a child just wasn't her thing.

If you do take it to the next level with someone, there's the need for prenups as the laws will still make you pay an arm and a leg for your significant other's "lifestyle" and with divorce as prevalent as it is, it WILL fuck up your life without it.

People aren't loyal, this goes for men and women, so these days, I'd almost expect to be cheated on, which I cannot tolerate. Be with me or leave, and do it honestly.

Domestic violence? Numbers are equalizing. Women abuse their domestic partners as often as men. I don't want to be on either the giving or receiving end of that. I dealt with enough of it growing up.

In short, I turn women away because the dating/relationship realm is a bloodsport I simply want nothing to do with.


Sorry, but not sorry.
Humms 
14155 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
26 / M / CAN, ON
Offline
Posted 1/15/18 , edited 1/15/18


Thats a good one.

As long as there is money, it will always be wasted one way or another.

So what good comes from your actions? to be Despicable.

Authority. For the right price I'm sure anyone could have it. Maybe we keep being silent for the wrong reasons, maybe we speak up for our own reasons, but at the end of the day.

Someones getting paid.
546 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
19 / F / Sweden, Kalmar
Offline
Posted 1/15/18 , edited 1/15/18

octorockandroll wrote:

I really like #MeToo (as much as I can like any movement that has a hashtag in its title, anyway) and what it's done. It's great that after years of people like Quinn and Sarkesian at the front of the movement to the point where they were invited to speak before the UN for some goddamn reason, mainstream feminism has centered itself back on real tangible problems and surprisingly large ones at that.

With that being said, I'm pretty split on whether or not this counts as assault.

On one hand, yes, Ansari physically and presumably forcefully bent her over against her consent, which is pretty much exactly the kind of behavior the whole movement has been set out to expose and punish. Ansari should not have done that at all.

On the other hand, I don't think it's up for debate that this woman's expectations are more than a bit too high. On some basic level everyone should be expected to read people, but if you expect them to recognize "non-verbal cues" on the spot you shouldn't really hold it against them if they do not pick up on them immediately. I mean, her exact words were "non-verbal cues" and then she goes to say that she was "not listened to", what should he listen to then? Your inner thoughts? The guy clearly stopped when you told him no, so I think the lesson here is to lead with that when you want to refuse something. This woman is (hopefully) an adult so she should by all means be able to communicate verbally.

On the other, other hand, the fact that you can speak verbally goes both ways. If a man is unsure whether or not a woman is comfortable with something, especially something sexual, he should by all means be able to ask her. I know this because I am a man and I always verbally ask a woman when trying to initiate any sort of sexual activity if she wants to, at least when I'm not in a committed relationship with someone I know well enough, but that doesn't really apply to this situation.

I guess the moral of the story is that people need to be able to fucking talk.


I agree with this^
3871 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
Offline
Posted 1/15/18 , edited 1/15/18
29480 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
29 / M
Offline
Posted 1/16/18 , edited 1/16/18
The line is easy. Knowingly accusing an innocent person to ruin their life and livelihood. There are laws against it though. Slander and libel. But if the person can't afford to defend themselves it's pointless.
2412 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
27 / F / At the Memory Den
Offline
Posted 1/16/18 , edited 1/16/18
I heard about aziz Ansari, look I support the me too movement but I do think it's getting out of hand you can go on a bad date and it shouldn't automatically be called misconduct aziz even said the next day when he texted the Woman he learned she was uncomfortable and made a not to work on himself since he didn't know it was that uncomfortable what's next kissing on the first date will be a big no no? There's ways to get out of a bad date
2094 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
26 / F / PA, USA
Offline
Posted 1/16/18 , edited 1/17/18
Ansari's situation is the poster child of how corrupt these kinds of things can become. Folks like Weinstein and his "audition couch" had it coming for decades; however, these sort of things always, always stir up a frenzy, and there are always buffoons who get wrapped up in the excitement and chime in without any legitimacy. It was going to be perverted into a witch hunt, one way or another. Now, as Matt Damon was attacked for, we can hardly say the blatantly obvious without being mobbed, and normal interactions between people who haven't figured out each other's preferences can be painted as "sexual assault."
12786 cr points
Send Message: Send PM GB Post
M / Australia
Offline
Posted 1/16/18 , edited 1/17/18
First  Prev  1  2  Next  Last
You must be logged in to post.