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Angels of Death Discussion

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Posted 8/26/18 , edited 8/31/18

BettyColtrane wrote:


greyhooter wrote:

I have a theory. My apologies if somebody has already floated this but I haven't read all the posts in this thread. I think that Ray and Zack are actually one consciousness. Or to put it another way, Ray is a manifestation of Zack. I think Zack is in a coma state somewhere and he is being put through this process in order to "cure" him of his homicidal nature. If he navigates the process properly, he will be able to "kill" Ray and that will be an indication he has changed. I don't think we have seen any flashbacks of Ray, have we? Only flashbacks of Zack.


I like this theory a lot. But I think we did see one brief flashback that seemed to imply Ray had killed her parents. No idea what episode and I might have been misinterpreting what I saw. But that's definitely a good theory!



I have some vague memory of that, as well. I wonder if that is a reflection of the fact that Zack killed his... foster guardians, I guess? The other thing that makes me suspicious that Ray may be a manifestation of Zack's consciousness is that she is the only character we've encountered that does not have a specific floor assigned to her.

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Posted 8/26/18 , edited 8/31/18
I am honestly unsure how to handle "romances" like these. It goes beyond being weird to being horrific and twisted. Do we really need to glorify such things under the banner of neurodiverse tolerance?
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Posted 8/26/18 , edited 8/31/18

PeripheralVisionary wrote:

I am honestly unsure how to handle "romances" like these. It goes beyond being weird to being horrific and twisted. Do we really need to glorify such things under the banner of neurodiverse tolerance?


It's a good story. Good stories are horrific and twisted sometimes. I don't know how anything is being "glorified" here- neither Rachel nor Zack seems like very fun people to be around... or to be, for that matter.

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Posted 8/26/18 , edited 8/31/18

BettyColtrane wrote:


PeripheralVisionary wrote:

I am honestly unsure how to handle "romances" like these. It goes beyond being weird to being horrific and twisted. Do we really need to glorify such things under the banner of neurodiverse tolerance?


It's a good story. Good stories are horrific and twisted sometimes. I don't know how anything is being "glorified" here- neither Rachel nor Zack seems like very fun people to be around... or to be, for that matter.


I specified the romantic for a reason. It seems people are willing to gloss over serious issues regarding mental illness and otherwise to praise a relationship as amisunderstood pair of outlier.

I can bear with anything else, but to extol such a bond as being loving if slightly off kilter is horrific. This is me being more upset at fans than I am at the work itself.

The topic of mental health is poorly misunderstood, and even romanticized. This isn't an alternate love, this is just twisted minds that haven't developed heathily.

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Posted 8/26/18 , edited 8/31/18
Where the heck are you getting romance from? Rachel's just a pretty good-natured kid who doesn't want to watch a man die before he completes his promise to god because religion's a big deal to her. The only ones thinking this is supposed to be a love story are desperate shippers, and the shipping communities will basically twist anything that way.

You're right that this isn't an accurate portrayal of mental illness AT ALL, but it's fine. These characters aren't meant to be realistic, they're meant to run off of horror villain logic. I mean, honestly, I'd be surprised if that many people were looking at a series about a guy with a giant scythe for accurate looks into serial killers and how they operate.
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Posted 8/26/18 , edited 8/31/18
Wait, this is supposed to be a romance exploring the mental illnesses of its characters? I signed up for a psychological thriller full of wicked distortions and a warped relationship between delusional MCs — I'll be pissed if it starts getting real. Not sure how Zack could even commit to a romance when every woman who's ever smiled at him was filleted. Hell, he even gutted himself when he accidentally caught a glimpse of his own smile. Irony at its most beautiful.

Fairly certain psychological thrillers are purely for entertainment purposes. The redrum ideal.
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Posted 8/26/18 , edited 8/31/18
There's no romance here, it's not meant to be realistic, and unless the game is SUPER different in its subtext I have no effing idea where these ideas even came from.
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Posted 8/27/18 , edited 8/31/18
Maybe it's from how Zack hugged Ray when he told her not to let herself get killed?

Honestly, the only "romantic" thing in the game was like... the song that plays at the ending of the game. But even then you can still read everything that went down as platonic. I know people can be really Thirsty about shipping, especially in a series where the cast is limited and their interaction is even moreso, But I reallyyyy doubt it's an actual romance going on here considering how Zack is approximately 20 and Ray is 13 years old. Plus, Ray just wants to die and Zack is a respectable male adult, dangit.

It's not supposed to be seen as a healthy or realistic thing. Everything about them is warped - between their personalities, their pasts, their ideologies, and their promise. It just looks like a positive thing because they're learning to get along with each other in their partnership. And there really isn't anything wrong with them learning to genuinely care about the other, especially in a life-or-death situation. But I really don't think there's anything to misunderstand about a serial killer who gets his jollies out of slaughtering people in his own strange preference and a suicidal girl who's only really alive in a literal sense with how it's basically slapped onto our faces for like, half of the anime.

Like... explain please? I feel like I must be misunderstanding something here. Is it actually about the portrayal of mental illness being romanticized or is this really about shipping?
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Posted 8/27/18 , edited 8/31/18

PeripheralVisionary wrote:


BettyColtrane wrote:


PeripheralVisionary wrote:

I am honestly unsure how to handle "romances" like these. It goes beyond being weird to being horrific and twisted. Do we really need to glorify such things under the banner of neurodiverse tolerance?


It's a good story. Good stories are horrific and twisted sometimes. I don't know how anything is being "glorified" here- neither Rachel nor Zack seems like very fun people to be around... or to be, for that matter.


I specified the romantic for a reason. It seems people are willing to gloss over serious issues regarding mental illness and otherwise to praise a relationship as amisunderstood pair of outlier.

I can bear with anything else, but to extol such a bond as being loving if slightly off kilter is horrific. This is me being more upset at fans than I am at the work itself.

The topic of mental health is poorly misunderstood, and even romanticized. This isn't an alternate love, this is just twisted minds that haven't developed heathily.



1. I'm really confused as to how you're getting any kind of romantic vibe from the interactions between Rachel and Zack. People CAN care about each other without romance being involved, you know. And even terribly damaged people can care about each other, even if it's for selfish reasons and/or not in what most would consider a "healthy" way. People are complicated and their interactions are often VERY complicated.

2. "this is just twisted minds that haven't developed heathily"- Well, yes, that's kind of the whole point. At no time does the series suggest that Rachel and Zack are normal or healthy people.

3. As someone else has pointed out, this story uses very standard "psycho killer" tropes. I'm pretty sure no one is mistaking it for a serious exploration of mental illness.

4. I seem to be seeing more and more of this attitude that "Author portrays an interaction that is unhealthy by our cultural standards, therefore author thinks such interactions are just fine and dandy and we're supposed to think so too". Very similar to "Author portrays a villain as having some human qualities, therefore we're supposed to be OK with all the horrific shit the villain has done". NO- creating a fictional portrayal of a behavior or situation is not an endorsement or even condonement (is that even a word? too lazy too look up) of it!



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Posted 8/27/18 , edited 8/31/18

imitationflower wrote:

Maybe it's from how Zack hugged Ray when he told her not to let herself get killed?

Honestly, the only "romantic" thing in the game was like... the song that plays at the ending of the game. But even then you can still read everything that went down as platonic. I know people can be really Thirsty about shipping, especially in a series where the cast is limited and their interaction is even moreso, But I reallyyyy doubt it's an actual romance going on here considering how Zack is approximately 20 and Ray is 13 years old. Plus, Ray just wants to die and Zack is a respectable male adult, dangit.

It's not supposed to be seen as a healthy or realistic thing. Everything about them is warped - between their personalities, their pasts, their ideologies, and their promise. It just looks like a positive thing because they're learning to get along with each other in their partnership. And there really isn't anything wrong with them learning to genuinely care about the other, especially in a life-or-death situation. But I really don't think there's anything to misunderstand about a serial killer who gets his jollies out of slaughtering people in his own strange preference and a suicidal girl who's only really alive in a literal sense with how it's basically slapped onto our faces for like, half of the anime.

Like... explain please? I feel like I must be misunderstanding something here. Is it actually about the portrayal of mental illness being romanticized or is this really about shipping?





BettyColtrane wrote:


PeripheralVisionary wrote:


BettyColtrane wrote:


PeripheralVisionary wrote:

I am honestly unsure how to handle "romances" like these. It goes beyond being weird to being horrific and twisted. Do we really need to glorify such things under the banner of neurodiverse tolerance?


It's a good story. Good stories are horrific and twisted sometimes. I don't know how anything is being "glorified" here- neither Rachel nor Zack seems like very fun people to be around... or to be, for that matter.


I specified the romantic for a reason. It seems people are willing to gloss over serious issues regarding mental illness and otherwise to praise a relationship as amisunderstood pair of outlier.

I can bear with anything else, but to extol such a bond as being loving if slightly off kilter is horrific. This is me being more upset at fans than I am at the work itself.

The topic of mental health is poorly misunderstood, and even romanticized. This isn't an alternate love, this is just twisted minds that haven't developed heathily.



1. I'm really confused as to how you're getting any kind of romantic vibe from the interactions between Rachel and Zack. People CAN care about each other without romance being involved, you know. And even terribly damaged people can care about each other, even if it's for selfish reasons and/or not in what most would consider a "healthy" way. People are complicated and their interactions are often VERY complicated.

2. "this is just twisted minds that haven't developed heathily"- Well, yes, that's kind of the whole point. At no time does the series suggest that Rachel and Zack are normal or healthy people.

3. As someone else has pointed out, this story uses very standard "psycho killer" tropes. I'm pretty sure no one is mistaking it for a serious exploration of mental illness.

4. I seem to be seeing more and more of this attitude that "Author portrays an interaction that is unhealthy by our cultural standards, therefore author thinks such interactions are just fine and dandy and we're supposed to think so too". Very similar to "Author portrays a villain as having some human qualities, therefore we're supposed to be OK with all the horrific shit the villain has done". NO- creating a fictional portrayal of a behavior or situation is not an endorsement or even condonement (is that even a word? too lazy too look up) of it!





More aptly fandom hate, but the topic is a sensitive one, and my antipathy began with Ana Satsujin, and the various other romanticization of abuse, emotional and physical, in far too many series. This isn't the absolute worst, by far. As you said, it seems that the author/game creator is more than self aware, and is merely portraying it for the sake of some entertainment, which I can understand.

The fandoms? I never quite understood before how fandoms can ruin things like Hetalia and so forth. To me, I think it is best to ignore them. I cannot quite shake the knowledge that as harmless as this game and many others were intended to be, there are so many foolish adolescence and even adults that romanticize them without a hint of a self aware fantasy that I see with extremes like Yuno or Kotonoha, or Satou and Matsuri for me.

Of course, I was young enough yet old enough to remember the age of Harry Potter, and thus the birth of tropes "Ron The Death Eater" and "Draco In Leather Pants".

I call such things "fantasy fetishes". No one actually wants them, but entertains the notion of such in the realm of fantasy. To me, that is fun, and Imagine for many, this is why we "like" Zack or Rachel or Satou. It is neither ironic or even unironic. Just a fleeting fantasy we entertain solely because we are rational enough to know the downsides. Some people...just do not, and they are quick to congregate, such folks.

It is not at all fair for any show to get hatred based on its fandom, and I apologize for seemingly venting towards it. It is completely fandom hate, and I should have clarified. Apologies.
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Posted 8/28/18 , edited 8/31/18
I'm always griping about a lot of the music in the anime and I swear this meme probably sums up my feelings about it.
The anime's music isn't bad, it's just... completely different from the game's and the anime doesn't put in enough music tbh lol ;;
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Posted 8/31/18 , edited 8/31/18
Episode 9

So Danny turns out to be alive, and he really lays it into Zack. And then Rachel gets chased by a giant snake that ends up disappearing as she reaches Zack. In the end, Zack is determined to tough it out as there wasn't any medicine she could get, but following Danny's blood trail could lead them. And then that snake comes out of hiding that Zack kills, but soon after kicks the bucket. That was quite a miserable way for Zack to go out seeing that it means the promise won't be fulfilled.
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Posted 8/31/18 , edited 8/31/18
Episode 9

Rachel manages to survive this long and reunite with Zack again.

Seriously though, the professor looking for her was super creepy. Zack also had to fight some creepy snakes shortly after and one of them tried to kill Rachel. Glad they are at least keeping the violence of this anime for the episode. The TV version I watched was uncensored.

Idk how to feel about Rachel and Zack's relationship still. It's just so strange....

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Posted 8/31/18 , edited 8/31/18
The only strange thing for me is the fact, that Zack lost multiple dozens of gallons of blood and he still "kicking" it But jokes aside, I can't imagine a happy ending for this show. It's just too edgy for that I know there is a game which was used as a base for the anime, but I didn't bother to play with it.
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Posted 8/31/18 , edited 8/31/18

Atusz97 wrote:

The only strange thing for me is the fact, that Zack lost multiple dozens of gallons of blood and he still "kicking" it But jokes aside, I can't imagine a happy ending for this show. It's just too edgy for that I know there is a game which was used as a base for the anime, but I didn't bother to play with it.


Didn't you know? Anime characters are genetically related to cockroaches - Zack will be fine!! ^q^ /
As someone who's played the game, I can confidently say the story's conclusion was fitting. Though
I don't know how you feel about open-ended endings.
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