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Presuppositionalism

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Posted 12/2/18 , edited 12/2/18

Humms wrote:



I will not acknowledge there are 2 sides to the argument

so you can't refine your arguments


You aren't caught in a loop of knee-jerking to the example in the OP, are you? Also, I'm uncertain as to what you think my "argument" is, if it can be called that.
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Posted 12/2/18 , edited 12/3/18

Cardamom_Ginger wrote:


Humms wrote:



I will not acknowledge there are 2 sides to the argument

so you can't refine your arguments


You aren't caught in a loop of knee-jerking to the example in the OP, are you? Also, I'm uncertain as to what you think my "argument" is, if it can be called that.


You dont strike me as a believer.

I just feel that going to the lengths the OP did, I just honestly believe there is no place for that much concern.

believe, or don't

exist, or don't.

but you can't tell me otherwise. you can go believe on your own time

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Posted 12/2/18 , edited 12/2/18

foraslan wrote:


XxDarkSasuxX wrote:
It's easier to just stop and refute it here with a simple "No, it doesn't." and a "Prove it.".

Although, I'm not really a fan of philosophy of which I view as extremely archaic and increasingly more so obsolete in the face of modern science, so I'm not the best person to answer this question.

As you said, the argument from presupposition will inherently always beg the question, so really there is no need to seriously refute it unless the speaker can give a more nuanced and balanced argument.


In principle I agree, but it's not that easy in practice. The argument sounds reasonable on first glance (most good scientific hypotheses are rooted in prior observation, and all deduced knowledge stems from prior premises), especially to someone already persuaded that they're right. My hope is that if a substantially similar argument can be formed for the opposite position, they'll be able to see the problem- or at least I'll be able to frustrate them as much as they do me.

Religiosity is unfortunately not a problem you can just 'argue away'. It will slowly die out the more we educate people (compare countries with free college to the United States for example) and the further technology improves our ability to fact check.

As for the argument that scientific hypothesis are rooted in prior observation you are correct. It is also correct to say that those same conclusions would and would have occurred had we not discovered them. It's like the classic tree falling in a forest with nobody around scenario. We already know it would make a sound due to scientific observance, but, had humankind never dabbled in the studies of the world, it would still make a sound if it were to fall.

On a side note, I noticed you said you like reading arguments and counter arguments regarding the god debate. I recently rewatched the Quanta 2011 Richard Dawkins vs (Christian) Cardinal George Pell. It is a staggering example of why it is impossible to reason with logic against someone engaging in magical thought. I do wish the debate was longer than 1 hour, but that was all they had time for. You will see significant examples of circular logic still used to this day. You just cannot argue against something already out of the bounds of logical reasoning.
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Posted 12/3/18 , edited 12/3/18
Essentially what I mentioned earlier, to me it seems impossible as a presuppositionalist that anyone who would disagree with your claim could even be considered to have a valid argument.

I thought the beauty of arguments was the possibility that you may be wrong.
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Posted 12/3/18 , edited 12/3/18

Humms wrote:

There actually isnt a god.

Just humans destroying the world day by day.

There isnt an actual argument.

Just because someone wrote the bible, that doesnt mean god exists.

To believe that only the few were the only ones to truly experience god, complete and utter nonsense


God doesnt exist, just a thought in our heads.

God does more harm than good by creating a dictatorship, it leaves no room for living beyond gods reasoning, brainwasing people.

Thats not god, god never wanted people to support a salesmen of god, god never wanted to build churches, God never wanted people to repent for their sins.

God doesnt want us to live life for ourselves, god repressed and held society down, creating a belief that destroys and kills, victimizes and tortures people.

There is no god, just mankinds disgusting nature of a perfect world.

To believe god exists, do what you will. Sing and pray, dance and laugh, look up to the sky and believe something is there.

The moment you start spouting off about god and his existence, thats when i come into play.

Family friendship and culture are the only thing that exists in this world





This is so wrong I can't even bother to argue with you
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Posted 12/3/18 , edited 12/3/18

BushyBrowSensei wrote:

its illogical to assume that logic cannot exist independent of outside phenomena


You could also say that it is illogical to assume that something illogical is unable to exist even within our phenomena
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Posted 12/3/18 , edited 12/3/18
Why is it so hard to believe something outside of human logic can exist?? It isn't impossible. There are many things within this world we still can't decipher so for something to exist that is outside human logic isn't impossible. We cannot understand everything.
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Posted 12/3/18 , edited 12/3/18

Humms wrote:

I will not acknowledge there are 2 sides to the argument

so you can't refine your arguments


What's the point of a debate if you aren't willing to listen to both sides? Just thinking the other side is wrong without actually hearing any evidence won't get you anywhere in life. Your own argument cannot be valid if you don't here points from all sides
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Posted 12/3/18 , edited 12/3/18

Humms wrote:

There actually isnt a god.

1a)Just humans destroying the world day by day.

1b) There isnt an actual argument.

1c)Just because someone wrote the bible, that doesnt mean god exists.

2)To believe that only the few were the only ones to truly experience god, complete and utter nonsense


God doesnt exist, just a thought in our heads.

3)God does more harm than good by creating a dictatorship, it leaves no room for living beyond gods reasoning, brainwasing people.

4)Thats not god, god never wanted people to support a salesmen of god, god never wanted to build churches, God never wanted people to repent for their sins.

God doesnt want us to live life for ourselves, god repressed and held society down, creating a belief that destroys and kills, victimizes and tortures people.

5)There is no god, just mankinds disgusting nature of a perfect world.

To believe god exists, do what you will. Sing and pray, dance and laugh, look up to the sky and believe something is there.

6)The moment you start spouting off about god and his existence, thats when i come into play.

7)Family friendship and culture are the only thing that exists in this world




I feel bothered actually

1a) True humans do destroy the world day by day
1b) And why not?
1c) Just because someone wrote the Bible doesn't mean God doesn't exist where's your point?
2) Ask many believers of any religion and I can guarantee many will say they have had an experience with God
3) Many people use religion as a means to control not its original use or intention. That does not take away from whether God exists
4) I have no idea where you got that from. In the Bible it says God wanted people to repent and do things like that. Also you are saying God never wanted those things and that's not God when you are arguing he doesn't exist. What would you define God as. Remember it also says he gave us free will to have more control over our own lives.
5)How is God mankind's disgusting nature of a perfect world? Surely as God is shown perfect that is good and we should strive for regardless a perfect world
6) Yes you come into play to spout your one sided argument not taking into account the other side
7) This world is far more than just family, friends and culture
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Posted 12/3/18 , edited 12/3/18

AnimeObserver123 wrote:


Humms wrote:

I will not acknowledge there are 2 sides to the argument

so you can't refine your arguments


What's the point of a debate if you aren't willing to listen to both sides? Just thinking the other side is wrong without actually hearing any evidence won't get you anywhere in life. Your own argument cannot be valid if you don't here points from all sides



-_-

Because enough time is wasted arguing if god exists.

Go ahead.

You go right on and explain why God exists. Then when im done making my money for the day, and im back to my drawing tablet, ill see if you responded.

God exists in our hearts, my lord almighty get that through your head.



God doesnt actually exist. God is a blessing, god is this being we ask for guidence.

But no matter what we do, we have earthquakes, tsunamis, wild fires, floods, pollution.

If you owned a house, would you just let people destroy it, ah its ok, they know not what they do, ya that's god talking. Ok god, just let it slide when your house is reduced to ashes.

But please, enlighten me child.


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Posted 12/3/18 , edited 12/3/18

Humms wrote:


AnimeObserver123 wrote:


Humms wrote:

I will not acknowledge there are 2 sides to the argument

so you can't refine your arguments


What's the point of a debate if you aren't willing to listen to both sides? Just thinking the other side is wrong without actually hearing any evidence won't get you anywhere in life. Your own argument cannot be valid if you don't here points from all sides



-_-

Because enough time is wasted arguing if god exists.

Go ahead.

You go right on and explain why God exists. Then when im done making my money for the day, and im back to my drawing tablet, ill see if you responded.

God exists in our hearts, my lord almighty get that through your head.



God doesnt actually exist. God is a blessing, god is this being we ask for guidence.

But no matter what we do, we have earthquakes, tsunamis, wild fires, floods, pollution.

If you owned a house, would you just let people destroy it, ah its ok, they know not what they do, ya that's god talking. Ok god, just let it slide when your house is reduced to ashes.

But please, enlighten me child.



I'm not going to write if you are not going to listen. What's the point? I don't just debate for the fun of it. Yet I repeat God gave us free will.
And where have you head God telling people to let there house be destroyed???
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Posted 12/3/18 , edited 12/4/18

AnimeObserver123 wrote:

Why is it so hard to believe something outside of human logic can exist?? It isn't impossible. There are many things within this world we still can't decipher so for something to exist that is outside human logic isn't impossible. We cannot understand everything.


Reality is both what we can observe and can't observe, and what we currently understand and have yet to understand. Perhaps there are supernatural aspects to reality that can't be understood or explained with logic, but logic has yet worked fine for the things that exist within the laws of physics. But for stuff yet unknown, that doesn't necessarily mean we should pass it off as unexplainable or supernatural.
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Posted 12/4/18 , edited 12/4/18

AnimeObserver123 wrote:


Humms wrote:

I will not acknowledge there are 2 sides to the argument

so you can't refine your arguments


What's the point of a debate if you aren't willing to listen to both sides? Just thinking the other side is wrong without actually hearing any evidence won't get you anywhere in life. Your own argument cannot be valid if you don't here points from all sides

It would be more fruitful for you to debate a _____ in why your god is real and theirs is make-believe.

Feel free to fill in the blank with any of these religions.


AnimeObserver123 wrote:

Why is it so hard to believe something outside of human logic can exist?? It isn't impossible. There are many things within this world we still can't decipher so for something to exist that is outside human logic isn't impossible. We cannot understand everything.

Because rain used to exist outside of the realm of human knowledge. So did season cycles. So did the moon cycle. And the list continues.
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Posted 12/4/18 , edited 12/4/18

JustineKo2 wrote:

Essentially what I mentioned earlier, to me it seems impossible as a presuppositionalist that anyone who would disagree with your claim could even be considered to have a valid argument.

I thought the beauty of arguments was the possibility that you may be wrong.


Omg. Is this comment on topic? OMG. THANK YOU!

You're absolutely right. Presuppositionalists do not acknowledge the possibility of being wrong. So the point of my OP wasn't the written argument, per se, but a kind of meta argument that would arise from formulating an argument that can reflect their reasoning point-for-point. Something I can assert as strongly and obtusely as they can, in exactly the same form as their arguments, until they realize what's going on. Maybe if they see that substantially similar arguments to theirs can be formed, they'll realize why it doesn't help.
Which is why it would be best if I could not only refute their basic argument in that manner, but also turn their reasoning around and say they are actually the ones who can't know anything.
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Posted 12/4/18 , edited 12/4/18

foraslan wrote:

Which is why it would be best if I could not only refute their basic argument in that manner, but also turn their reasoning around and say they are actually the ones who can't know anything.

But how can you do that when they already know that? They understand the diction of the word "faith", but they do not understand that it is not synonymous with 'truth'. As paradoxical as that sounds.

And when you point that out, the next reiteration point is "Well, it doesn't matter if I think it's real or not; as long as I believe, I get a special apartment in Heaven with my name on it.". The whole concept is based around not critically thinking. The same points are regurgitated over and over. Whenever you do succeed in telling them they are wrong, often times they will go look up a counter argument instead of thinking about the basis of where their logic is flawed.
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