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Qu'ran Burning Event

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Posted 8/7/10 , edited 8/8/10
I feel like I'm debating with a wall. I'm done with arguing with you DomFortress.
I guess others will know better than you and me. Let others judge for us.
Continue submerging in your self-acclaimed 明镜止水 state of mind then.

君にこんなの人は籠で水を汲む。

A waste of my time... Bye.
Posted 8/7/10 , edited 8/8/10

yu_sama wrote:

I feel like I'm debating with a wall. I'm done with arguing with you DomFortress.
I guess others will know better than you and me. Let others judge for us.
Continue submerging in your self-acclaimed 明镜止水 state of mind then.

君にこんなの人は籠で水を汲む。

A waste of my time... Bye.
You're willing to let the stupid masses to be the judge? You're more gullible than the masses that you're blindingly trusting, no matter how many languages you can speak. You're still stupid in the end.
Posted 8/7/10 , edited 8/8/10

DomFortress wrote:


yu_sama wrote:

I feel like I'm debating with a wall. I'm done with arguing with you DomFortress.
I guess others will know better than you and me. Let others judge for us.
Continue submerging in your self-acclaimed 明镜止水 state of mind then.

君にこんなの人は籠で水を汲む。

A waste of my time... Bye.
You're willing to let the stupid masses to be the judge? You're more gullible than the masses that you're blindingly trusting, no matter how many languages you can speak. You're still stupid in the end.


I lol'd my ass off.
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Posted 8/7/10 , edited 8/8/10

papagolfwhiskey wrote:

guy... guys...

The OP was about some idiots thinking the US first amendment entitled them to burn books they disagreed with.

The course of this thread has been about Islam and the efforts a couple of it's youthful adherants to either demand respect or act as apologists for it's bad reputation or perhaps, as improbable as it may seem, actually learn something from the rest of us.

If you must continue could you take it to PMs because now it won't matter which of you wins. You're both beginning to look um... less than stellar.

Back on topic.

If someone buys their own copy of a book and chooses to burn it. They are within their rights.

I personally find it abhorrant. To me book burnings have symbolized, weather in history or science fiction the ultimate act of human ignorance. Weather your book burning evokes the Nazis or the Firemen of "Fahrenheit 451" neither image is flattering nor inclined to engender any respect from me.

I also wonder how many Al Jezeira snuff films can be indirectly linked back to such an event when it's directed against the Qu'ran.

However, A lot of things people dislike or find offensive even blaphemous are legal in an open polygot and truly free society. So yeah those fucktards are free to burn copies of the Qu'ran, or any other book that they probably haven't read but have decided they dislike anyway (assuming they own the copies and obey all the local ordinances about open fires). And I'm free to think they're dicks for doing it.

As for the more general trend of the topic.

Nothing written here has convinced me to switch from my secular humanist and religious apatheism approaches to life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_humanism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apatheism

Nor has it convinced me to alter my current judgments of daily events. I remain convinced that Islam as it is practiced by a sufficiently populous and empowered minority of it's adherents is significantly more violent and less tolerant than I would like. Certainly more so than the ideals of western society and certainly more so than most open secular societies are able to accomodate.

I believe the teachings of Islam DO permit it's adherants to abandon any moral code when dealing with non-believers.
I'm convinced there is an asymmetric violent response to perceived disrespect. and that it is a deliberate tactic for silencing non-believers and those who would question religious authority.
I believe the 'peace' that Islam's apologists proclaim is not the peace of tolerance and mutual understanding but something more akin to 'peace through superior firepower'

I would be ecstatic to be convinced otherwise but it would require a lot of people to change a lot of real world behaviour patterns.

In the meantime I'm willing to talk. Maybe dialogue can do.. something.







Hey sorry about that. I'm not someone who'd lose my cool that easily. I guess it takes a real arrogant and ignorant ass to make me.

But anyway,
"If someone buys their own copy of a book and chooses to burn it. They are within their rights.

I personally find it abhorrant. To me book burnings have symbolized, weather in history or science fiction the ultimate act of human ignorance. Weather your book burning evokes the Nazis or the Firemen of "Fahrenheit 451" neither image is flattering nor inclined to engender any respect from me."

Thanks for stating out this point. I think anyone would be agreeable with it.

I guess the aim of this forum wasn't to make you switch from your believes. It's just for people to know that it is not politically, morally or religiously correct to burn any holy books of any religions.

The minority does not stand for the majority.
Majority of the muslims are peaceful people. In fact muslims here in my country, sorry if I would offend anyone but I don't mean to, are the slackest buncha people I know. I don't know if its the teaching of the Quran or if its just a culture, either way, they are people who can be happily contented with anything life offers them.

I know I speak with no real prove that anyone can see. But they are part of my everyday life and I see them with my eyes. I would believe it more than any texts or websites on the internet because I did not live through it. But I'm not trying to say I'm ignorant to the real fact that there are Islamic groups of people that kills innocent people and are ethically, morally and even religiously incorrect . I mean look at the 911 incident, the several cases of suicide bombings that are proclaimed by certain terrorist groups, etc, they are REAL. It happened and although it happened far away from me, with only very little or no impact on my life, they still affected many thousands out there. I'm not ignorant to that fact. But still, they are the minority of muslims that through twisting the meanings of the religious teachings, poison the minds of new recruits and made the world put Islam in bad light.

So yes, although I agree with some of your points like' burning the Quran is disrespectful and people who do that are dicks.", I still think that it is not really correct of you to deem the whole Islam religion to "'peace through superior firepower' "just because some assholes decide to use their religion as covers for their evil deeds.
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Posted 8/7/10 , edited 8/8/10
I'm affraid the minority does stand for the majority when the minority voice is the one heard. when the minority is the group with the political military and/or social power.

Perhaps instead of 'Peace through superior firepower' I should have said "peace through annihilation" And I'm not condeming the whole religion just a very loud and very effective (as in able to enact their violent wishes) minority. Though perhaps there is a shade of disappointment in the lack of voices raised in disagreement against that loud minority.
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Posted 8/7/10 , edited 8/8/10

papagolfwhiskey wrote:

I'm affraid the minority does stand for the majority when the minority voice is the one heard. when the minority is the group with the political military and/or social power.

Perhaps instead of 'Peace through superior firepower' I should have said "peace through annihilation" And I'm not condeming the whole religion just a very loud and very effective (as in able to enact their violent wishes) minority. Though perhaps there is a shade of disappointment in the lack of voices raised in disagreement against that loud minority.


Yes it is pretty sad that that's the only thing people know about Islam. Through the stronger fire-armed minorities that are really not the true expression of the peaceful religion.
"Peace through annihilation" might have been a little too harsh to use, although indeed the terrorist groups are rash to show that. And nah, I believe there's more than just little or small objections against the actions of the minorities from the majorities. I'm sure there are more but just unheard. Afterall in this era where the world depends heavily on media to be interconnected with one another, there's a lot of manipulation and perhaps even censorship that media can use and portray to the rest of the world. The truth is might still be unknown to us no matter how much we read or dig because the media might have censored those features.
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Posted 8/7/10 , edited 8/8/10
That is something I've considered.(media distortion) And try to allow for. Also while I might have my suspicions about the religion as a whole... I try to give everyone I meet in person the benefit of the doubt.

On the job, I again, require even more patience and open mindedness. As nurse in a secular but religiously tolerant society it's a job requirment that I be ready to support the client's beliefs (especially if it gives them comfort) regardless of my own belief structure. It's not my place to tell someone who is dieing that I have my doubts about god. ditto for greiving families.

I also wonder what Islam will be like in another 5 or 6 hundred years. then it will be as old as christianity is now. perhaps there will be a Muslim equivalent of the United Church of Canada.



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Posted 8/7/10 , edited 8/8/10
I believe that Islam is actually older than Christianity. It is not because the girls earlier in this forum that keeps stressing on it. It's because I've studied about Western art history (I'm an artist) and there was this period in history that the lecturer mentioned about Islam and Christianity. Because western art history is very connected to religious art and paintings, therefore by studying their art, we can know certain information about their religion and how their practices were like then.

And yes, Islam was mentioned briefly (mainly because the originating country was not a western country). Most of Spain was Islamic then but after Christianity was born, they took over Spain and the muslims became lesser and lesser. So from this, our lecturers and us thought that Islam was actually older than Christianity and looking at how their religious story goes, we believe one could've been a stem out of the other. However we weren't suppose to touch on sensitive topics like those, we are artists, so we should just be analyzing on just the art aspect. But art is interconnected to religions and philosophies and life, so there're times when we would unknowingly discussed about that.
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Posted 8/7/10 , edited 8/8/10
errr... Islam doesn't exist prior to Mohammed. I'm pretty sure the dates of his life, work, and death a fairly well established.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophets_in_Islam

Christianity is born approximately in the 1st year of the Common Era. (approximately can be as late as 30 C.E.)
Islam draws from Christianity and Judaism before Christ, (just as Christianity draws from Judeaism) the critical difference is an additional Prophet (Mohammed) who brings a whole new book to the holy writings.

Mohammed lived and died nearly 600 years after Christ. Around the time Mohammed was born (570 CE) the grand children of the Attendees of the first council of Nicea (325 CE) were probably all in their graves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea


so... No.
(edited and expanded.)
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Posted 8/7/10 , edited 8/8/10

papagolfwhiskey wrote:

errr... Islam doesn't exist prior to Mohammed. I'm pretty sure the dates of his life, work, and death a fairly well established.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophets_in_Islam

Christianity is born approximately in the 1st year of the Common Era. (approximately can be as late as 30 C.E.)
Islam draws from Christianity and Judaism before Christ, (just as Christianity draws from Judeaism) the critical difference is an additional Prophet (Mohammed) who brings a whole new book to the holy writings.

Mohammed lived and died nearly 600 years after Christ. Around the time Mohammed was born (570 CE) the grand children of the Attendees of the first council of Nicea (325 CE) were probably all in their graves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea


so... No.
(edited and expanded.)


Mmm... So how the textbooks phrase their words can be misleading as well then? Haha, because I'm neither of the religion and plus I'm not really interested, I did not go deep in to check. But the muslims that are studying the same subjects did not point out anything either. I wonder why?
Thanks for the clarification.
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Posted 8/7/10 , edited 8/8/10
Actually they say it's 1450 years old. which in 2010 set's it's origin at 560 C.E. usually their assertion is that it's the most RECENT and thus most accurate/perfected version of the Judaic inspired faiths.

Of course by THAT logic the Mormons or the Ahmediyya are MORE perfect. but of course instead they are just heretics in the eyes of the parent religion.

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Posted 8/7/10 , edited 8/8/10

yu_sama wrote:


Mmm... So how the textbooks phrase their words can be misleading as well then? Haha, because I'm neither of the religion and plus I'm not really interested, I did not go deep in to check. But the muslims that are studying the same subjects did not point out anything either. I wonder why?
Thanks for the clarification.


Perhaps you're confused over which religion was in charge in a given region. The Muslims controlled a large part of Spain and the Balkans during the high tides of the Moorish(Spain) and Ottoman (Turkish >> Balkan) Empires. But those tides ebbed and Christianity enjoyed a resurgence, especially in Spain.

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Posted 8/7/10 , edited 8/8/10
Perhaps that was the case. But since exams ended some 4 months back, I did not pick that book up for revision anymore.
I'm still reading the wiki sources you posted. They are interesting read and I'm learning a lot from them.
Thanks!
Posted 8/8/10 , edited 8/8/10
my entire face after reading every single post in this thread sigh i give up on people peace out

Posted 8/8/10 , edited 8/8/10
Books, flags, DVDs whatever.... If you own it you can burn it if you like, as long as you do the burning in an manner that doesn't endanger the lives or property of others. I don't really understand the logic of buying something only to then burn it as that seems wasteful which is something I abhor. I also don't understand the thrill of destroying something that's special to another human being publicly just to make a point or to try making them feel bad? It seems like if your side of the issue is the right one then your money would be better spent advancing your own cause rather than buying something you despise and by doing so supporting your enemies cause?
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