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T-Rish wrote:
DomFortress wrote:
Spoiler Alert! Click to show or hide T-Rish wrote:
I'm just going to say this:
1. People who aren't Muslim or are non-believers will not understand the Qur'an unless they have an open mind about it. There are places in the Qur'an where many people (mostly those who refuse to understand the religion and try to condemn the holy verses for "false" statements and/or violence) misinterpret the meanings. If you're not a philosopher - and i do say that lightly since you don't need to be a philosopher to gain deep understandings for things - then your not going to be able to put together what most Muslims have learnt throughout our lives. And if you can learn things without letting false media stereotypes and worldly circumstances get in your way, then Masha-Allah, i'm happy for ya. How do you think so many people are reverting (converting) to Islam? But if you can't understand the significance of Islam, even if you think you've "researched" the Qur'an and you can't go any "deeper" than you already have, then your not putting much effort into understanding it with an open mind - as if you want to accept it as your religion. It's the same thing with every religion - Hypothetically, If i go and research about the Bible, gospel, scriptures or whatever, i will most probably look at the "bad" things first and judge the whole religion by it. Why? Because i'm not open to accepting and understanding another religion (which is totally not true, if i hear something about another religion and be like "oh ok so thats why it happens, I'm a pretty accepting person. But Islam is the only religion for me).
2. Hadiths are NOT the words of Allah (God). YOU CANNOT REPLACE IT'S WORDS FOR THE QUR'ANS. Hadiths are like narratives which usually depict "true" stories. Notice the quotation marks - yea...all hadith's are written, compiled and interpreted by people who lived years after the Prophet did - so what exactly is the point of reading something not from God directly and allowing it to falsify the word of God? Especially when stories passed over from generation to generation and can resemble a game of chinese whispers over hundreds of years. Another thing about hadiths is that, no matter how true a story sounds, every single different hadith out there are written by different people - different scholars, Imaam's, etc. Believe not what may have been subject to change in the past, present or future. But believe the word of God which is timeless and forever true, as He has said that no man, jinn or angel can change the Qur'an (go google this since i can't be bothered finding the verse that states this).
3. Committing suicide is FORBIDDEN in Islam. Doing this is a one-way ticket to hell. No, Jihad does not come under the section of committing suicide. Comitting suicide is not Matyrdom. They have differences which are often confused. What the people in Iran, Iraq, Palestine, Afghanistan, etc., are doing is WRONG. Suicide bombing = ticket to hell. Jihad = Martyr = Heaven. Suicide bombing does not = Jihad; therefore no heaven. Is that clear? A lot of people nowadays are confusing political garb with religion. And most of these times Islam gets used as a sort of scapegoat for politicians and people who want power and wealth. This is why Islam is almost always branded a violent religion in the media, because the media focuses on the "news" which mostly happens to be bad news. Journalisms a bitch in that way. It's not supposed to work that way. The people corrupt the people, Allah does not - His words DO NOT. Jihad is not something to be taken as lightly as what's happening in the world today. It should only come up in a last resort situation, which i'm pretty sure this middle-eastern "religious" war thing isn't a last resort situation since words can be exchanged without violent interferences. In short, a lot of Muslims wouldn't even think of these extremists or terrorists as Muslims because of the false reputation they're are Islam and disregarding the peace and loving religion it is supposed to be. We are NOT allowed to wage war first - EVER. We are NOT supposed to solve things with violence unless there is no other way - and in such situations the other party must become violent first. This rule applies for many things as well as this - It is our duty as a Muslim to explain, and make others understand, and to keep peace. We should do so three times before allowing violence to lead between two groups/people. Go to #4
4. As for the Islamic laws so many people like to bring up... Why is it that laws made hundreds of years ago when violence was used to deal with violence is being brought up over and over again? Like seriously, how many people still cut off hands for people who steal? Some middle-eastern countries do, and that is mostly because of ignorance and the fact that doing these things will inflict fear into people minds (which usually means they like to have power over the people). Things like this just comes down to common sense regarding the era we live in. Every justice system has their good and bad bits, and quite genuinely, i like the Islamic Shari'ah. A lot of the laws are canonical in the sense that it still works for today's society as well as it did for the past society. If i were to compare the Islamic laws to the laws of the American Justice system; one example is the death penalty. If someone murders someone then they should be in jail for life + the death penalty? I think that's harsh in this modern era. So what if someone is a psychotic killer, do they really deserve to die? Can't they just stay in jail and get help, and if they can't be helped, can't the just stay in jail until they die? Justice can't always be served, and every place or religion have their own laws. Some are harsh and others aren't. You just gotta accept that. As for the countires that are composed solely on the Islamic shari'ah in this time and era...in fact any place that does this...obviously there's something wrong with that. And we see it as wrong or inhumane because we've been "westernised" and have a different POV of things. Just like if you go and live with tribes and people that are still pretty much going about their lives the same ways their ancestors did and using the same laws as them and stuff, we'll find it wrong, but to them its normal.
In a way, we are shaped by the society we live in, the time, the place, the personalities closest to us. So what reason do we have to object others' ways of life and not understand what they are just because they aren't the same as us or don't have the same views as us?
Think about it.
Here's where you don't get the logic of non-contradiction, as in when you unwisely claiming that all opinions are equal, you uncritically made all opinions are equally stupid when they don't work. But is that a factual claim based on reality?
For example, why should there even be a capital punishment/death penalty? When the reality is that it just doesn't work to solve crime in the US; capital of punishment.
When the laws of a society doesn't change, the society itself doesn't change either. Thereby when you have a patriarchy Muslim society that promote gender inequality, look what happens with the state of Muslim womanhood as according to their Islamic faith as the fundamental philosophy for their legislation.
Also, I find your downplaying the importance of philosophy very irrational. Because you're going against your very own Islamic teaching of valuing knowledge.
Finally can you see just how incredible the religious tradition of the "after-life" or "reincarnation" as a cultural norms during primary socialization, can make individuals pretty much disregard their current life as is? Furthermore, when the religious system of justification lies beyond the individuals' comprehension as both supernatural and metaphysical in existence, we're pretty much looking at a religious moral code of conduct that's incapable of yielding any natural and physical result within an individuals' given lifetime. How's that for a superstitious scapegoat? Pretty ethnocentric, wouldn't you agreed?
Spoiler Alert! Click to show or hide That first statement is as retarded as retarded can get - In my opinion anyway. Everyone has their own opinions, but you don't see me blowing up in each persons face contradicting their thoughts with mine. That's the reason i didn't quote anyone in this thread, because to me everyone is entitled to have their own opinion. You can answer that question yourself because all it takes is some common sense. And about capital punishment, i just said that i don't agree with things as such. You seem to me as someone who doesn't like to look at the whole picture, but instead try to find bits and pieces which you can manipulate and think your opposer has said the wrong thing.
You have it wrong: When the society doesn't change, neither do their laws. It's not the other way around. Islam doesn't encourage gender inequality, it promotes the equality of men and women both. I'm going to ask you something, Have you actually read the whole Qur'an instead of finding snippets or verses you pick out from internet sources or the articles you like to hyperlink? And don't even try to lie to me by saying that you have, because someone who has read it knows that Allah created differences between men and women. What one may not be good at, the other is good at. We were made to compliment each other - Two halves of a whole. Three of those hyperlinks were based on what's happening in Iran (and i have already stated Iran as a country that has a lot of problems mainly because they confuse religion and politics in the path to attain power and wealth). Another thing about Iran is that although it is mostly populated with muslims, 89% of the muslims are of the Shia class whereas only 9% is Sunni (source: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ir.html). I'm going to assume your uneducated about the differences between these two "classes" and explain that the Shia class often contradict the teachings of Islam and the guidance of the Prophet Muhammed (S.A.W.) (no offence intended to any Shia's out there). We have been taught to follow Allah's words and use the life of the Prophet as a guidance to how we should live our life (and one would know when to follow this rule literally and when things should be taken practically).
I was not downplaying the importance of philosophy. I said that "...you don't need to be a philosopher to gain deep understandings for things...". There is a significant difference. this just proves to me that you don't read and interpret things correctly.
1. There is no reincarnation in Islam.
2. You live in a time and era where things have changed radically since the revelation of the Qur'an. Sure we should follow the Islamic Shari'ah, but im pretty sure that many people, including myself and many other learned Muslims, wouldn't agree on the punishment one person can give to another. Being a judge for such punishments, you know that your accountable to answer to Allah about why a punishment was given or why a law was carried out, and your justification must be commendable since you would have to decide something which could very much change an individuals life. We should not try and take into our hands another person fate. But if it isn't avoidable, then we should do so with extreme caution. The morality in Islam of such things doesn't really contradict the morals we have gained from today's society. As i have said before, times have changed! Those who cannot perceive the peace the Islamic Shari'ah is supposed to bring and rules unjustly will be dealt with in the after-life by the only One who can. It is He who the the Just, the All-knower, the All-seer, the Merciful.
Another thing, it is said that there will only be a few TRUE Muslims left in the world when the Day of Judgement nears. All I can say is that have the Islamic population may not be true Muslims at the moment. Hell, i don't even know if I'm a true Muslim. What i do know is that I am trying to be the best Muslim i can be and i know that i will be rewarded for it in the after-life. And what do you mean by ethnocentric? That is indubitably the stupidest comment i have heard. In my eyes, Yes i do find Islam the superior religion. You go to a Christian and they'd be "ethnocentric" too. Go to a scientist, they'll probably beleive science is the greatest and above all other things. However, i don't beleive i'm superior to the person next to me, or someone on the streets, etc. In a way, your ethnocentric because I can't get it past you that Islam is good, you beleive whatever you beleive in and think it's superior than Islam. And you know what, that's fine with me because according to Islam on the day of Judgement we are all going to have to answer to God, and we are all accountable for our actions.
I don't expect you to understand what I'm talking about because to me it seems that you only want to see the bad in Islam, but you should at least try and respect others religions and their beliefs. We have our beliefs and i can't answer your questions coherently because i don't feel you know about Islam enough and are not open to understanding our views and teachings. In a way that proves of your ignorance towards Islam.
Oh one more thing, I'm not going to reply to any more quotes/replies because It's ridiculous to have religious threads on an Anime/Drama site, especially when there is so much ignoramus, stereotypical, media- and internet-induced rubbish going around.
And I rest my case, QED:
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Spoiler Alert! Click to show or hide DomFortress wrote:
T-Rish wrote:
DomFortress wrote:
Spoiler Alert! Click to show or hide T-Rish wrote:
I'm just going to say this:
1. People who aren't Muslim or are non-believers will not understand the Qur'an unless they have an open mind about it. There are places in the Qur'an where many people (mostly those who refuse to understand the religion and try to condemn the holy verses for "false" statements and/or violence) misinterpret the meanings. If you're not a philosopher - and i do say that lightly since you don't need to be a philosopher to gain deep understandings for things - then your not going to be able to put together what most Muslims have learnt throughout our lives. And if you can learn things without letting false media stereotypes and worldly circumstances get in your way, then Masha-Allah, i'm happy for ya. How do you think so many people are reverting (converting) to Islam? But if you can't understand the significance of Islam, even if you think you've "researched" the Qur'an and you can't go any "deeper" than you already have, then your not putting much effort into understanding it with an open mind - as if you want to accept it as your religion. It's the same thing with every religion - Hypothetically, If i go and research about the Bible, gospel, scriptures or whatever, i will most probably look at the "bad" things first and judge the whole religion by it. Why? Because i'm not open to accepting and understanding another religion (which is totally not true, if i hear something about another religion and be like "oh ok so thats why it happens, I'm a pretty accepting person. But Islam is the only religion for me).
2. Hadiths are NOT the words of Allah (God). YOU CANNOT REPLACE IT'S WORDS FOR THE QUR'ANS. Hadiths are like narratives which usually depict "true" stories. Notice the quotation marks - yea...all hadith's are written, compiled and interpreted by people who lived years after the Prophet did - so what exactly is the point of reading something not from God directly and allowing it to falsify the word of God? Especially when stories passed over from generation to generation and can resemble a game of chinese whispers over hundreds of years. Another thing about hadiths is that, no matter how true a story sounds, every single different hadith out there are written by different people - different scholars, Imaam's, etc. Believe not what may have been subject to change in the past, present or future. But believe the word of God which is timeless and forever true, as He has said that no man, jinn or angel can change the Qur'an (go google this since i can't be bothered finding the verse that states this).
3. Committing suicide is FORBIDDEN in Islam. Doing this is a one-way ticket to hell. No, Jihad does not come under the section of committing suicide. Comitting suicide is not Matyrdom. They have differences which are often confused. What the people in Iran, Iraq, Palestine, Afghanistan, etc., are doing is WRONG. Suicide bombing = ticket to hell. Jihad = Martyr = Heaven. Suicide bombing does not = Jihad; therefore no heaven. Is that clear? A lot of people nowadays are confusing political garb with religion. And most of these times Islam gets used as a sort of scapegoat for politicians and people who want power and wealth. This is why Islam is almost always branded a violent religion in the media, because the media focuses on the "news" which mostly happens to be bad news. Journalisms a bitch in that way. It's not supposed to work that way. The people corrupt the people, Allah does not - His words DO NOT. Jihad is not something to be taken as lightly as what's happening in the world today. It should only come up in a last resort situation, which i'm pretty sure this middle-eastern "religious" war thing isn't a last resort situation since words can be exchanged without violent interferences. In short, a lot of Muslims wouldn't even think of these extremists or terrorists as Muslims because of the false reputation they're are Islam and disregarding the peace and loving religion it is supposed to be. We are NOT allowed to wage war first - EVER. We are NOT supposed to solve things with violence unless there is no other way - and in such situations the other party must become violent first. This rule applies for many things as well as this - It is our duty as a Muslim to explain, and make others understand, and to keep peace. We should do so three times before allowing violence to lead between two groups/people. Go to #4
4. As for the Islamic laws so many people like to bring up... Why is it that laws made hundreds of years ago when violence was used to deal with violence is being brought up over and over again? Like seriously, how many people still cut off hands for people who steal? Some middle-eastern countries do, and that is mostly because of ignorance and the fact that doing these things will inflict fear into people minds (which usually means they like to have power over the people). Things like this just comes down to common sense regarding the era we live in. Every justice system has their good and bad bits, and quite genuinely, i like the Islamic Shari'ah. A lot of the laws are canonical in the sense that it still works for today's society as well as it did for the past society. If i were to compare the Islamic laws to the laws of the American Justice system; one example is the death penalty. If someone murders someone then they should be in jail for life + the death penalty? I think that's harsh in this modern era. So what if someone is a psychotic killer, do they really deserve to die? Can't they just stay in jail and get help, and if they can't be helped, can't the just stay in jail until they die? Justice can't always be served, and every place or religion have their own laws. Some are harsh and others aren't. You just gotta accept that. As for the countires that are composed solely on the Islamic shari'ah in this time and era...in fact any place that does this...obviously there's something wrong with that. And we see it as wrong or inhumane because we've been "westernised" and have a different POV of things. Just like if you go and live with tribes and people that are still pretty much going about their lives the same ways their ancestors did and using the same laws as them and stuff, we'll find it wrong, but to them its normal.
In a way, we are shaped by the society we live in, the time, the place, the personalities closest to us. So what reason do we have to object others' ways of life and not understand what they are just because they aren't the same as us or don't have the same views as us?
Think about it.
Here's where you don't get the logic of non-contradiction, as in when you unwisely claiming that all opinions are equal, you uncritically made all opinions are equally stupid when they don't work. But is that a factual claim based on reality?
For example, why should there even be a capital punishment/death penalty? When the reality is that it just doesn't work to solve crime in the US; capital of punishment.
When the laws of a society doesn't change, the society itself doesn't change either. Thereby when you have a patriarchy Muslim society that promote gender inequality, look what happens with the state of Muslim womanhood as according to their Islamic faith as the fundamental philosophy for their legislation.
Also, I find your downplaying the importance of philosophy very irrational. Because you're going against your very own Islamic teaching of valuing knowledge.
Finally can you see just how incredible the religious tradition of the "after-life" or "reincarnation" as a cultural norms during primary socialization, can make individuals pretty much disregard their current life as is? Furthermore, when the religious system of justification lies beyond the individuals' comprehension as both supernatural and metaphysical in existence, we're pretty much looking at a religious moral code of conduct that's incapable of yielding any natural and physical result within an individuals' given lifetime. How's that for a superstitious scapegoat? Pretty ethnocentric, wouldn't you agreed?
Spoiler Alert! Click to show or hide That first statement is as retarded as retarded can get - In my opinion anyway. Everyone has their own opinions, but you don't see me blowing up in each persons face contradicting their thoughts with mine. That's the reason i didn't quote anyone in this thread, because to me everyone is entitled to have their own opinion. You can answer that question yourself because all it takes is some common sense. And about capital punishment, i just said that i don't agree with things as such. You seem to me as someone who doesn't like to look at the whole picture, but instead try to find bits and pieces which you can manipulate and think your opposer has said the wrong thing.
You have it wrong: When the society doesn't change, neither do their laws. It's not the other way around. Islam doesn't encourage gender inequality, it promotes the equality of men and women both. I'm going to ask you something, Have you actually read the whole Qur'an instead of finding snippets or verses you pick out from internet sources or the articles you like to hyperlink? And don't even try to lie to me by saying that you have, because someone who has read it knows that Allah created differences between men and women. What one may not be good at, the other is good at. We were made to compliment each other - Two halves of a whole. Three of those hyperlinks were based on what's happening in Iran (and i have already stated Iran as a country that has a lot of problems mainly because they confuse religion and politics in the path to attain power and wealth). Another thing about Iran is that although it is mostly populated with muslims, 89% of the muslims are of the Shia class whereas only 9% is Sunni (source: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ir.html). I'm going to assume your uneducated about the differences between these two "classes" and explain that the Shia class often contradict the teachings of Islam and the guidance of the Prophet Muhammed (S.A.W.) (no offence intended to any Shia's out there). We have been taught to follow Allah's words and use the life of the Prophet as a guidance to how we should live our life (and one would know when to follow this rule literally and when things should be taken practically).
I was not downplaying the importance of philosophy. I said that "...you don't need to be a philosopher to gain deep understandings for things...". There is a significant difference. this just proves to me that you don't read and interpret things correctly.
1. There is no reincarnation in Islam.
2. You live in a time and era where things have changed radically since the revelation of the Qur'an. Sure we should follow the Islamic Shari'ah, but im pretty sure that many people, including myself and many other learned Muslims, wouldn't agree on the punishment one person can give to another. Being a judge for such punishments, you know that your accountable to answer to Allah about why a punishment was given or why a law was carried out, and your justification must be commendable since you would have to decide something which could very much change an individuals life. We should not try and take into our hands another person fate. But if it isn't avoidable, then we should do so with extreme caution. The morality in Islam of such things doesn't really contradict the morals we have gained from today's society. As i have said before, times have changed! Those who cannot perceive the peace the Islamic Shari'ah is supposed to bring and rules unjustly will be dealt with in the after-life by the only One who can. It is He who the the Just, the All-knower, the All-seer, the Merciful.
Another thing, it is said that there will only be a few TRUE Muslims left in the world when the Day of Judgement nears. All I can say is that have the Islamic population may not be true Muslims at the moment. Hell, i don't even know if I'm a true Muslim. What i do know is that I am trying to be the best Muslim i can be and i know that i will be rewarded for it in the after-life. And what do you mean by ethnocentric? That is indubitably the stupidest comment i have heard. In my eyes, Yes i do find Islam the superior religion. You go to a Christian and they'd be "ethnocentric" too. Go to a scientist, they'll probably beleive science is the greatest and above all other things. However, i don't beleive i'm superior to the person next to me, or someone on the streets, etc. In a way, your ethnocentric because I can't get it past you that Islam is good, you beleive whatever you beleive in and think it's superior than Islam. And you know what, that's fine with me because according to Islam on the day of Judgement we are all going to have to answer to God, and we are all accountable for our actions.
I don't expect you to understand what I'm talking about because to me it seems that you only want to see the bad in Islam, but you should at least try and respect others religions and their beliefs. We have our beliefs and i can't answer your questions coherently because i don't feel you know about Islam enough and are not open to understanding our views and teachings. In a way that proves of your ignorance towards Islam.
Oh one more thing, I'm not going to reply to any more quotes/replies because It's ridiculous to have religious threads on an Anime/Drama site, especially when there is so much ignoramus, stereotypical, media- and internet-induced rubbish going around.
And I rest my case, QED:
The thing about you Dom I have notice is you dont address any issues at all anyone points out but merely jump over it. With this response I see that you posted doesnt dismantle anything the user has stated. My question to you is exactly what are you debating here? Now to me as much as you accuse muslim for pushing their faith on you, you indeed are a hypocrite as you are doing the same with that picture you just put up. Good for you that your an Aethiest Dom shall we reward you a cracker? No muslim on this forum cares if you are because to me this is what your slowly trying to turn this into. This is about Quran being burned and to me like I stated earlier is just an attempt to anger muslims. Muslims should not be angered at all is the Quran is only TEXT, it is the teachings that should remain forever. I dont know how other muslims will react but hopefully they wont give the media what they want which is anger and violence.
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drizza wrote:
Spoiler Alert! Click to show or hide DomFortress wrote:
T-Rish wrote:
DomFortress wrote:
Spoiler Alert! Click to show or hide T-Rish wrote:
I'm just going to say this:
1. People who aren't Muslim or are non-believers will not understand the Qur'an unless they have an open mind about it. There are places in the Qur'an where many people (mostly those who refuse to understand the religion and try to condemn the holy verses for "false" statements and/or violence) misinterpret the meanings. If you're not a philosopher - and i do say that lightly since you don't need to be a philosopher to gain deep understandings for things - then your not going to be able to put together what most Muslims have learnt throughout our lives. And if you can learn things without letting false media stereotypes and worldly circumstances get in your way, then Masha-Allah, i'm happy for ya. How do you think so many people are reverting (converting) to Islam? But if you can't understand the significance of Islam, even if you think you've "researched" the Qur'an and you can't go any "deeper" than you already have, then your not putting much effort into understanding it with an open mind - as if you want to accept it as your religion. It's the same thing with every religion - Hypothetically, If i go and research about the Bible, gospel, scriptures or whatever, i will most probably look at the "bad" things first and judge the whole religion by it. Why? Because i'm not open to accepting and understanding another religion (which is totally not true, if i hear something about another religion and be like "oh ok so thats why it happens, I'm a pretty accepting person. But Islam is the only religion for me).
2. Hadiths are NOT the words of Allah (God). YOU CANNOT REPLACE IT'S WORDS FOR THE QUR'ANS. Hadiths are like narratives which usually depict "true" stories. Notice the quotation marks - yea...all hadith's are written, compiled and interpreted by people who lived years after the Prophet did - so what exactly is the point of reading something not from God directly and allowing it to falsify the word of God? Especially when stories passed over from generation to generation and can resemble a game of chinese whispers over hundreds of years. Another thing about hadiths is that, no matter how true a story sounds, every single different hadith out there are written by different people - different scholars, Imaam's, etc. Believe not what may have been subject to change in the past, present or future. But believe the word of God which is timeless and forever true, as He has said that no man, jinn or angel can change the Qur'an (go google this since i can't be bothered finding the verse that states this).
3. Committing suicide is FORBIDDEN in Islam. Doing this is a one-way ticket to hell. No, Jihad does not come under the section of committing suicide. Comitting suicide is not Matyrdom. They have differences which are often confused. What the people in Iran, Iraq, Palestine, Afghanistan, etc., are doing is WRONG. Suicide bombing = ticket to hell. Jihad = Martyr = Heaven. Suicide bombing does not = Jihad; therefore no heaven. Is that clear? A lot of people nowadays are confusing political garb with religion. And most of these times Islam gets used as a sort of scapegoat for politicians and people who want power and wealth. This is why Islam is almost always branded a violent religion in the media, because the media focuses on the "news" which mostly happens to be bad news. Journalisms a bitch in that way. It's not supposed to work that way. The people corrupt the people, Allah does not - His words DO NOT. Jihad is not something to be taken as lightly as what's happening in the world today. It should only come up in a last resort situation, which i'm pretty sure this middle-eastern "religious" war thing isn't a last resort situation since words can be exchanged without violent interferences. In short, a lot of Muslims wouldn't even think of these extremists or terrorists as Muslims because of the false reputation they're are Islam and disregarding the peace and loving religion it is supposed to be. We are NOT allowed to wage war first - EVER. We are NOT supposed to solve things with violence unless there is no other way - and in such situations the other party must become violent first. This rule applies for many things as well as this - It is our duty as a Muslim to explain, and make others understand, and to keep peace. We should do so three times before allowing violence to lead between two groups/people. Go to #4
4. As for the Islamic laws so many people like to bring up... Why is it that laws made hundreds of years ago when violence was used to deal with violence is being brought up over and over again? Like seriously, how many people still cut off hands for people who steal? Some middle-eastern countries do, and that is mostly because of ignorance and the fact that doing these things will inflict fear into people minds (which usually means they like to have power over the people). Things like this just comes down to common sense regarding the era we live in. Every justice system has their good and bad bits, and quite genuinely, i like the Islamic Shari'ah. A lot of the laws are canonical in the sense that it still works for today's society as well as it did for the past society. If i were to compare the Islamic laws to the laws of the American Justice system; one example is the death penalty. If someone murders someone then they should be in jail for life + the death penalty? I think that's harsh in this modern era. So what if someone is a psychotic killer, do they really deserve to die? Can't they just stay in jail and get help, and if they can't be helped, can't the just stay in jail until they die? Justice can't always be served, and every place or religion have their own laws. Some are harsh and others aren't. You just gotta accept that. As for the countires that are composed solely on the Islamic shari'ah in this time and era...in fact any place that does this...obviously there's something wrong with that. And we see it as wrong or inhumane because we've been "westernised" and have a different POV of things. Just like if you go and live with tribes and people that are still pretty much going about their lives the same ways their ancestors did and using the same laws as them and stuff, we'll find it wrong, but to them its normal.
In a way, we are shaped by the society we live in, the time, the place, the personalities closest to us. So what reason do we have to object others' ways of life and not understand what they are just because they aren't the same as us or don't have the same views as us?
Think about it.
Here's where you don't get the logic of non-contradiction, as in when you unwisely claiming that all opinions are equal, you uncritically made all opinions are equally stupid when they don't work. But is that a factual claim based on reality?
For example, why should there even be a capital punishment/death penalty? When the reality is that it just doesn't work to solve crime in the US; capital of punishment.
When the laws of a society doesn't change, the society itself doesn't change either. Thereby when you have a patriarchy Muslim society that promote gender inequality, look what happens with the state of Muslim womanhood as according to their Islamic faith as the fundamental philosophy for their legislation.
Also, I find your downplaying the importance of philosophy very irrational. Because you're going against your very own Islamic teaching of valuing knowledge.
Finally can you see just how incredible the religious tradition of the "after-life" or "reincarnation" as a cultural norms during primary socialization, can make individuals pretty much disregard their current life as is? Furthermore, when the religious system of justification lies beyond the individuals' comprehension as both supernatural and metaphysical in existence, we're pretty much looking at a religious moral code of conduct that's incapable of yielding any natural and physical result within an individuals' given lifetime. How's that for a superstitious scapegoat? Pretty ethnocentric, wouldn't you agreed?
Spoiler Alert! Click to show or hide That first statement is as retarded as retarded can get - In my opinion anyway. Everyone has their own opinions, but you don't see me blowing up in each persons face contradicting their thoughts with mine. That's the reason i didn't quote anyone in this thread, because to me everyone is entitled to have their own opinion. You can answer that question yourself because all it takes is some common sense. And about capital punishment, i just said that i don't agree with things as such. You seem to me as someone who doesn't like to look at the whole picture, but instead try to find bits and pieces which you can manipulate and think your opposer has said the wrong thing.
You have it wrong: When the society doesn't change, neither do their laws. It's not the other way around. Islam doesn't encourage gender inequality, it promotes the equality of men and women both. I'm going to ask you something, Have you actually read the whole Qur'an instead of finding snippets or verses you pick out from internet sources or the articles you like to hyperlink? And don't even try to lie to me by saying that you have, because someone who has read it knows that Allah created differences between men and women. What one may not be good at, the other is good at. We were made to compliment each other - Two halves of a whole. Three of those hyperlinks were based on what's happening in Iran (and i have already stated Iran as a country that has a lot of problems mainly because they confuse religion and politics in the path to attain power and wealth). Another thing about Iran is that although it is mostly populated with muslims, 89% of the muslims are of the Shia class whereas only 9% is Sunni (source: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ir.html). I'm going to assume your uneducated about the differences between these two "classes" and explain that the Shia class often contradict the teachings of Islam and the guidance of the Prophet Muhammed (S.A.W.) (no offence intended to any Shia's out there). We have been taught to follow Allah's words and use the life of the Prophet as a guidance to how we should live our life (and one would know when to follow this rule literally and when things should be taken practically).
I was not downplaying the importance of philosophy. I said that "...you don't need to be a philosopher to gain deep understandings for things...". There is a significant difference. this just proves to me that you don't read and interpret things correctly.
1. There is no reincarnation in Islam.
2. You live in a time and era where things have changed radically since the revelation of the Qur'an. Sure we should follow the Islamic Shari'ah, but im pretty sure that many people, including myself and many other learned Muslims, wouldn't agree on the punishment one person can give to another. Being a judge for such punishments, you know that your accountable to answer to Allah about why a punishment was given or why a law was carried out, and your justification must be commendable since you would have to decide something which could very much change an individuals life. We should not try and take into our hands another person fate. But if it isn't avoidable, then we should do so with extreme caution. The morality in Islam of such things doesn't really contradict the morals we have gained from today's society. As i have said before, times have changed! Those who cannot perceive the peace the Islamic Shari'ah is supposed to bring and rules unjustly will be dealt with in the after-life by the only One who can. It is He who the the Just, the All-knower, the All-seer, the Merciful.
Another thing, it is said that there will only be a few TRUE Muslims left in the world when the Day of Judgement nears. All I can say is that have the Islamic population may not be true Muslims at the moment. Hell, i don't even know if I'm a true Muslim. What i do know is that I am trying to be the best Muslim i can be and i know that i will be rewarded for it in the after-life. And what do you mean by ethnocentric? That is indubitably the stupidest comment i have heard. In my eyes, Yes i do find Islam the superior religion. You go to a Christian and they'd be "ethnocentric" too. Go to a scientist, they'll probably beleive science is the greatest and above all other things. However, i don't beleive i'm superior to the person next to me, or someone on the streets, etc. In a way, your ethnocentric because I can't get it past you that Islam is good, you beleive whatever you beleive in and think it's superior than Islam. And you know what, that's fine with me because according to Islam on the day of Judgement we are all going to have to answer to God, and we are all accountable for our actions.
I don't expect you to understand what I'm talking about because to me it seems that you only want to see the bad in Islam, but you should at least try and respect others religions and their beliefs. We have our beliefs and i can't answer your questions coherently because i don't feel you know about Islam enough and are not open to understanding our views and teachings. In a way that proves of your ignorance towards Islam.
Oh one more thing, I'm not going to reply to any more quotes/replies because It's ridiculous to have religious threads on an Anime/Drama site, especially when there is so much ignoramus, stereotypical, media- and internet-induced rubbish going around.
And I rest my case, QED:
The thing about you Dom I have notice is you dont address any issues at all anyone points out but merely jump over it. With this response I see that you posted doesnt dismantle anything the user has stated. My question to you is exactly what are you debating here? Now to me as much as you accuse muslim for pushing their faith on you, you indeed are a hypocrite as you are doing the same with that picture you just put up. Good for you that your an Aethiest Dom shall we reward you a cracker? No muslim on this forum cares if you are because to me this is what your slowly trying to turn this into. This is about Quran being burned and to me like I stated earlier is just an attempt to anger muslims. Muslims should not be angered at all is the Quran is only TEXT, it is the teachings that should remain forever. I dont know how other muslims will react but hopefully they wont give the media what they want which is anger and violence. Well then don't blame me for not relying on a single ideology as the only self-identity. Especially when that ideology rejects differences and alternatives not based on logic, but natural human irrationalities known as "loss aversion", "confirmation bias", and "representativeness"(that's a new one).
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DomFortress wrote:
T-Rish wrote:
DomFortress wrote:
Spoiler Alert! Click to show or hide T-Rish wrote:
I'm just going to say this:
1. People who aren't Muslim or are non-believers will not understand the Qur'an unless they have an open mind about it. There are places in the Qur'an where many people (mostly those who refuse to understand the religion and try to condemn the holy verses for "false" statements and/or violence) misinterpret the meanings. If you're not a philosopher - and i do say that lightly since you don't need to be a philosopher to gain deep understandings for things - then your not going to be able to put together what most Muslims have learnt throughout our lives. And if you can learn things without letting false media stereotypes and worldly circumstances get in your way, then Masha-Allah, i'm happy for ya. How do you think so many people are reverting (converting) to Islam? But if you can't understand the significance of Islam, even if you think you've "researched" the Qur'an and you can't go any "deeper" than you already have, then your not putting much effort into understanding it with an open mind - as if you want to accept it as your religion. It's the same thing with every religion - Hypothetically, If i go and research about the Bible, gospel, scriptures or whatever, i will most probably look at the "bad" things first and judge the whole religion by it. Why? Because i'm not open to accepting and understanding another religion (which is totally not true, if i hear something about another religion and be like "oh ok so thats why it happens, I'm a pretty accepting person. But Islam is the only religion for me).
2. Hadiths are NOT the words of Allah (God). YOU CANNOT REPLACE IT'S WORDS FOR THE QUR'ANS. Hadiths are like narratives which usually depict "true" stories. Notice the quotation marks - yea...all hadith's are written, compiled and interpreted by people who lived years after the Prophet did - so what exactly is the point of reading something not from God directly and allowing it to falsify the word of God? Especially when stories passed over from generation to generation and can resemble a game of chinese whispers over hundreds of years. Another thing about hadiths is that, no matter how true a story sounds, every single different hadith out there are written by different people - different scholars, Imaam's, etc. Believe not what may have been subject to change in the past, present or future. But believe the word of God which is timeless and forever true, as He has said that no man, jinn or angel can change the Qur'an (go google this since i can't be bothered finding the verse that states this).
3. Committing suicide is FORBIDDEN in Islam. Doing this is a one-way ticket to hell. No, Jihad does not come under the section of committing suicide. Comitting suicide is not Matyrdom. They have differences which are often confused. What the people in Iran, Iraq, Palestine, Afghanistan, etc., are doing is WRONG. Suicide bombing = ticket to hell. Jihad = Martyr = Heaven. Suicide bombing does not = Jihad; therefore no heaven. Is that clear? A lot of people nowadays are confusing political garb with religion. And most of these times Islam gets used as a sort of scapegoat for politicians and people who want power and wealth. This is why Islam is almost always branded a violent religion in the media, because the media focuses on the "news" which mostly happens to be bad news. Journalisms a bitch in that way. It's not supposed to work that way. The people corrupt the people, Allah does not - His words DO NOT. Jihad is not something to be taken as lightly as what's happening in the world today. It should only come up in a last resort situation, which i'm pretty sure this middle-eastern "religious" war thing isn't a last resort situation since words can be exchanged without violent interferences. In short, a lot of Muslims wouldn't even think of these extremists or terrorists as Muslims because of the false reputation they're are Islam and disregarding the peace and loving religion it is supposed to be. We are NOT allowed to wage war first - EVER. We are NOT supposed to solve things with violence unless there is no other way - and in such situations the other party must become violent first. This rule applies for many things as well as this - It is our duty as a Muslim to explain, and make others understand, and to keep peace. We should do so three times before allowing violence to lead between two groups/people. Go to #4
4. As for the Islamic laws so many people like to bring up... Why is it that laws made hundreds of years ago when violence was used to deal with violence is being brought up over and over again? Like seriously, how many people still cut off hands for people who steal? Some middle-eastern countries do, and that is mostly because of ignorance and the fact that doing these things will inflict fear into people minds (which usually means they like to have power over the people). Things like this just comes down to common sense regarding the era we live in. Every justice system has their good and bad bits, and quite genuinely, i like the Islamic Shari'ah. A lot of the laws are canonical in the sense that it still works for today's society as well as it did for the past society. If i were to compare the Islamic laws to the laws of the American Justice system; one example is the death penalty. If someone murders someone then they should be in jail for life + the death penalty? I think that's harsh in this modern era. So what if someone is a psychotic killer, do they really deserve to die? Can't they just stay in jail and get help, and if they can't be helped, can't the just stay in jail until they die? Justice can't always be served, and every place or religion have their own laws. Some are harsh and others aren't. You just gotta accept that. As for the countires that are composed solely on the Islamic shari'ah in this time and era...in fact any place that does this...obviously there's something wrong with that. And we see it as wrong or inhumane because we've been "westernised" and have a different POV of things. Just like if you go and live with tribes and people that are still pretty much going about their lives the same ways their ancestors did and using the same laws as them and stuff, we'll find it wrong, but to them its normal.
In a way, we are shaped by the society we live in, the time, the place, the personalities closest to us. So what reason do we have to object others' ways of life and not understand what they are just because they aren't the same as us or don't have the same views as us?
Think about it.
Here's where you don't get the logic of non-contradiction, as in when you unwisely claiming that all opinions are equal, you uncritically made all opinions are equally stupid when they don't work. But is that a factual claim based on reality?
For example, why should there even be a capital punishment/death penalty? When the reality is that it just doesn't work to solve crime in the US; capital of punishment.
When the laws of a society doesn't change, the society itself doesn't change either. Thereby when you have a patriarchy Muslim society that promote gender inequality, look what happens with the state of Muslim womanhood as according to their Islamic faith as the fundamental philosophy for their legislation.
Also, I find your downplaying the importance of philosophy very irrational. Because you're going against your very own Islamic teaching of valuing knowledge.
Finally can you see just how incredible the religious tradition of the "after-life" or "reincarnation" as a cultural norms during primary socialization, can make individuals pretty much disregard their current life as is? Furthermore, when the religious system of justification lies beyond the individuals' comprehension as both supernatural and metaphysical in existence, we're pretty much looking at a religious moral code of conduct that's incapable of yielding any natural and physical result within an individuals' given lifetime. How's that for a superstitious scapegoat? Pretty ethnocentric, wouldn't you agreed?
Spoiler Alert! Click to show or hide That first statement is as retarded as retarded can get - In my opinion anyway. Everyone has their own opinions, but you don't see me blowing up in each persons face contradicting their thoughts with mine. That's the reason i didn't quote anyone in this thread, because to me everyone is entitled to have their own opinion. You can answer that question yourself because all it takes is some common sense. And about capital punishment, i just said that i don't agree with things as such. You seem to me as someone who doesn't like to look at the whole picture, but instead try to find bits and pieces which you can manipulate and think your opposer has said the wrong thing.
You have it wrong: When the society doesn't change, neither do their laws. It's not the other way around. Islam doesn't encourage gender inequality, it promotes the equality of men and women both. I'm going to ask you something, Have you actually read the whole Qur'an instead of finding snippets or verses you pick out from internet sources or the articles you like to hyperlink? And don't even try to lie to me by saying that you have, because someone who has read it knows that Allah created differences between men and women. What one may not be good at, the other is good at. We were made to compliment each other - Two halves of a whole. Three of those hyperlinks were based on what's happening in Iran (and i have already stated Iran as a country that has a lot of problems mainly because they confuse religion and politics in the path to attain power and wealth). Another thing about Iran is that although it is mostly populated with muslims, 89% of the muslims are of the Shia class whereas only 9% is Sunni (source: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ir.html). I'm going to assume your uneducated about the differences between these two "classes" and explain that the Shia class often contradict the teachings of Islam and the guidance of the Prophet Muhammed (S.A.W.) (no offence intended to any Shia's out there). We have been taught to follow Allah's words and use the life of the Prophet as a guidance to how we should live our life (and one would know when to follow this rule literally and when things should be taken practically).
I was not downplaying the importance of philosophy. I said that "...you don't need to be a philosopher to gain deep understandings for things...". There is a significant difference. this just proves to me that you don't read and interpret things correctly.
1. There is no reincarnation in Islam.
2. You live in a time and era where things have changed radically since the revelation of the Qur'an. Sure we should follow the Islamic Shari'ah, but im pretty sure that many people, including myself and many other learned Muslims, wouldn't agree on the punishment one person can give to another. Being a judge for such punishments, you know that your accountable to answer to Allah about why a punishment was given or why a law was carried out, and your justification must be commendable since you would have to decide something which could very much change an individuals life. We should not try and take into our hands another person fate. But if it isn't avoidable, then we should do so with extreme caution. The morality in Islam of such things doesn't really contradict the morals we have gained from today's society. As i have said before, times have changed! Those who cannot perceive the peace the Islamic Shari'ah is supposed to bring and rules unjustly will be dealt with in the after-life by the only One who can. It is He who the the Just, the All-knower, the All-seer, the Merciful.
Another thing, it is said that there will only be a few TRUE Muslims left in the world when the Day of Judgement nears. All I can say is that have the Islamic population may not be true Muslims at the moment. Hell, i don't even know if I'm a true Muslim. What i do know is that I am trying to be the best Muslim i can be and i know that i will be rewarded for it in the after-life. And what do you mean by ethnocentric? That is indubitably the stupidest comment i have heard. In my eyes, Yes i do find Islam the superior religion. You go to a Christian and they'd be "ethnocentric" too. Go to a scientist, they'll probably beleive science is the greatest and above all other things. However, i don't beleive i'm superior to the person next to me, or someone on the streets, etc. In a way, your ethnocentric because I can't get it past you that Islam is good, you beleive whatever you beleive in and think it's superior than Islam. And you know what, that's fine with me because according to Islam on the day of Judgement we are all going to have to answer to God, and we are all accountable for our actions.
I don't expect you to understand what I'm talking about because to me it seems that you only want to see the bad in Islam, but you should at least try and respect others religions and their beliefs. We have our beliefs and i can't answer your questions coherently because i don't feel you know about Islam enough and are not open to understanding our views and teachings. In a way that proves of your ignorance towards Islam.
Oh one more thing, I'm not going to reply to any more quotes/replies because It's ridiculous to have religious threads on an Anime/Drama site, especially when there is so much ignoramus, stereotypical, media- and internet-induced rubbish going around.
And I rest my case, QED:
Oh please. Give me a break will you.  Your not debating issues already in discussion, your bringing up completely new things that doesn't have anything to do with what the thread is actually about. And that diagram you have there is RUBBISH. I'm a Muslim and i'm studying Evolutionary biology along with other things. Evolutionary biology is the basis of my degree and also something that contradicts a lot of religions out there. Your not supposed to compare science and faith. Every knowledgeable person knows this. Its how you comprehend the situation is how it matters. Its useless if your trying to make me beleive science over everything. Like science is the answer to everything. Let me ask you this - Who made science?
Who made nature what it is today? Who created the first single-celled organism, that supposedly, evolved into everything today? Who made that LUCA? Who made chemistry, physics, mathematics, biology, and everything that we have in the world today?
To me, and many other people, the answer is God. And if you want to ask Who made God, then mate, i suggest you start thinking, because that's the beauty and miracle of religion. Like i said, you clearly don't have an understanding of anything other than your hyper-links. And you didn't have a case in the first place.
Edit: In response to what you replied to Drizza, There is logic behind everything, even Islam and its teachings... You don't see it, many people don't see it...I may not even understand it totally, but there is logic. Believe it or not. It is only HE who has taught us Islam that knows the "logic" behind everything. But hey, only us "ethnocentric" people who beleive we're superior to everyone and everything in the world would think something like this wouldn't we.
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T-Rish wrote:
Spoiler Alert! Click to show or hide DomFortress wrote:
T-Rish wrote:
DomFortress wrote:
Spoiler Alert! Click to show or hide T-Rish wrote:
I'm just going to say this:
1. People who aren't Muslim or are non-believers will not understand the Qur'an unless they have an open mind about it. There are places in the Qur'an where many people (mostly those who refuse to understand the religion and try to condemn the holy verses for "false" statements and/or violence) misinterpret the meanings. If you're not a philosopher - and i do say that lightly since you don't need to be a philosopher to gain deep understandings for things - then your not going to be able to put together what most Muslims have learnt throughout our lives. And if you can learn things without letting false media stereotypes and worldly circumstances get in your way, then Masha-Allah, i'm happy for ya. How do you think so many people are reverting (converting) to Islam? But if you can't understand the significance of Islam, even if you think you've "researched" the Qur'an and you can't go any "deeper" than you already have, then your not putting much effort into understanding it with an open mind - as if you want to accept it as your religion. It's the same thing with every religion - Hypothetically, If i go and research about the Bible, gospel, scriptures or whatever, i will most probably look at the "bad" things first and judge the whole religion by it. Why? Because i'm not open to accepting and understanding another religion (which is totally not true, if i hear something about another religion and be like "oh ok so thats why it happens, I'm a pretty accepting person. But Islam is the only religion for me).
2. Hadiths are NOT the words of Allah (God). YOU CANNOT REPLACE IT'S WORDS FOR THE QUR'ANS. Hadiths are like narratives which usually depict "true" stories. Notice the quotation marks - yea...all hadith's are written, compiled and interpreted by people who lived years after the Prophet did - so what exactly is the point of reading something not from God directly and allowing it to falsify the word of God? Especially when stories passed over from generation to generation and can resemble a game of chinese whispers over hundreds of years. Another thing about hadiths is that, no matter how true a story sounds, every single different hadith out there are written by different people - different scholars, Imaam's, etc. Believe not what may have been subject to change in the past, present or future. But believe the word of God which is timeless and forever true, as He has said that no man, jinn or angel can change the Qur'an (go google this since i can't be bothered finding the verse that states this).
3. Committing suicide is FORBIDDEN in Islam. Doing this is a one-way ticket to hell. No, Jihad does not come under the section of committing suicide. Comitting suicide is not Matyrdom. They have differences which are often confused. What the people in Iran, Iraq, Palestine, Afghanistan, etc., are doing is WRONG. Suicide bombing = ticket to hell. Jihad = Martyr = Heaven. Suicide bombing does not = Jihad; therefore no heaven. Is that clear? A lot of people nowadays are confusing political garb with religion. And most of these times Islam gets used as a sort of scapegoat for politicians and people who want power and wealth. This is why Islam is almost always branded a violent religion in the media, because the media focuses on the "news" which mostly happens to be bad news. Journalisms a bitch in that way. It's not supposed to work that way. The people corrupt the people, Allah does not - His words DO NOT. Jihad is not something to be taken as lightly as what's happening in the world today. It should only come up in a last resort situation, which i'm pretty sure this middle-eastern "religious" war thing isn't a last resort situation since words can be exchanged without violent interferences. In short, a lot of Muslims wouldn't even think of these extremists or terrorists as Muslims because of the false reputation they're are Islam and disregarding the peace and loving religion it is supposed to be. We are NOT allowed to wage war first - EVER. We are NOT supposed to solve things with violence unless there is no other way - and in such situations the other party must become violent first. This rule applies for many things as well as this - It is our duty as a Muslim to explain, and make others understand, and to keep peace. We should do so three times before allowing violence to lead between two groups/people. Go to #4
4. As for the Islamic laws so many people like to bring up... Why is it that laws made hundreds of years ago when violence was used to deal with violence is being brought up over and over again? Like seriously, how many people still cut off hands for people who steal? Some middle-eastern countries do, and that is mostly because of ignorance and the fact that doing these things will inflict fear into people minds (which usually means they like to have power over the people). Things like this just comes down to common sense regarding the era we live in. Every justice system has their good and bad bits, and quite genuinely, i like the Islamic Shari'ah. A lot of the laws are canonical in the sense that it still works for today's society as well as it did for the past society. If i were to compare the Islamic laws to the laws of the American Justice system; one example is the death penalty. If someone murders someone then they should be in jail for life + the death penalty? I think that's harsh in this modern era. So what if someone is a psychotic killer, do they really deserve to die? Can't they just stay in jail and get help, and if they can't be helped, can't the just stay in jail until they die? Justice can't always be served, and every place or religion have their own laws. Some are harsh and others aren't. You just gotta accept that. As for the countires that are composed solely on the Islamic shari'ah in this time and era...in fact any place that does this...obviously there's something wrong with that. And we see it as wrong or inhumane because we've been "westernised" and have a different POV of things. Just like if you go and live with tribes and people that are still pretty much going about their lives the same ways their ancestors did and using the same laws as them and stuff, we'll find it wrong, but to them its normal.
In a way, we are shaped by the society we live in, the time, the place, the personalities closest to us. So what reason do we have to object others' ways of life and not understand what they are just because they aren't the same as us or don't have the same views as us?
Think about it.
Here's where you don't get the logic of non-contradiction, as in when you unwisely claiming that all opinions are equal, you uncritically made all opinions are equally stupid when they don't work. But is that a factual claim based on reality?
For example, why should there even be a capital punishment/death penalty? When the reality is that it just doesn't work to solve crime in the US; capital of punishment.
When the laws of a society doesn't change, the society itself doesn't change either. Thereby when you have a patriarchy Muslim society that promote gender inequality, look what happens with the state of Muslim womanhood as according to their Islamic faith as the fundamental philosophy for their legislation.
Also, I find your downplaying the importance of philosophy very irrational. Because you're going against your very own Islamic teaching of valuing knowledge.
Finally can you see just how incredible the religious tradition of the "after-life" or "reincarnation" as a cultural norms during primary socialization, can make individuals pretty much disregard their current life as is? Furthermore, when the religious system of justification lies beyond the individuals' comprehension as both supernatural and metaphysical in existence, we're pretty much looking at a religious moral code of conduct that's incapable of yielding any natural and physical result within an individuals' given lifetime. How's that for a superstitious scapegoat? Pretty ethnocentric, wouldn't you agreed?
Spoiler Alert! Click to show or hide That first statement is as retarded as retarded can get - In my opinion anyway. Everyone has their own opinions, but you don't see me blowing up in each persons face contradicting their thoughts with mine. That's the reason i didn't quote anyone in this thread, because to me everyone is entitled to have their own opinion. You can answer that question yourself because all it takes is some common sense. And about capital punishment, i just said that i don't agree with things as such. You seem to me as someone who doesn't like to look at the whole picture, but instead try to find bits and pieces which you can manipulate and think your opposer has said the wrong thing.
You have it wrong: When the society doesn't change, neither do their laws. It's not the other way around. Islam doesn't encourage gender inequality, it promotes the equality of men and women both. I'm going to ask you something, Have you actually read the whole Qur'an instead of finding snippets or verses you pick out from internet sources or the articles you like to hyperlink? And don't even try to lie to me by saying that you have, because someone who has read it knows that Allah created differences between men and women. What one may not be good at, the other is good at. We were made to compliment each other - Two halves of a whole. Three of those hyperlinks were based on what's happening in Iran (and i have already stated Iran as a country that has a lot of problems mainly because they confuse religion and politics in the path to attain power and wealth). Another thing about Iran is that although it is mostly populated with muslims, 89% of the muslims are of the Shia class whereas only 9% is Sunni (source: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ir.html). I'm going to assume your uneducated about the differences between these two "classes" and explain that the Shia class often contradict the teachings of Islam and the guidance of the Prophet Muhammed (S.A.W.) (no offence intended to any Shia's out there). We have been taught to follow Allah's words and use the life of the Prophet as a guidance to how we should live our life (and one would know when to follow this rule literally and when things should be taken practically).
I was not downplaying the importance of philosophy. I said that "...you don't need to be a philosopher to gain deep understandings for things...". There is a significant difference. this just proves to me that you don't read and interpret things correctly.
1. There is no reincarnation in Islam.
2. You live in a time and era where things have changed radically since the revelation of the Qur'an. Sure we should follow the Islamic Shari'ah, but im pretty sure that many people, including myself and many other learned Muslims, wouldn't agree on the punishment one person can give to another. Being a judge for such punishments, you know that your accountable to answer to Allah about why a punishment was given or why a law was carried out, and your justification must be commendable since you would have to decide something which could very much change an individuals life. We should not try and take into our hands another person fate. But if it isn't avoidable, then we should do so with extreme caution. The morality in Islam of such things doesn't really contradict the morals we have gained from today's society. As i have said before, times have changed! Those who cannot perceive the peace the Islamic Shari'ah is supposed to bring and rules unjustly will be dealt with in the after-life by the only One who can. It is He who the the Just, the All-knower, the All-seer, the Merciful.
Another thing, it is said that there will only be a few TRUE Muslims left in the world when the Day of Judgement nears. All I can say is that have the Islamic population may not be true Muslims at the moment. Hell, i don't even know if I'm a true Muslim. What i do know is that I am trying to be the best Muslim i can be and i know that i will be rewarded for it in the after-life. And what do you mean by ethnocentric? That is indubitably the stupidest comment i have heard. In my eyes, Yes i do find Islam the superior religion. You go to a Christian and they'd be "ethnocentric" too. Go to a scientist, they'll probably beleive science is the greatest and above all other things. However, i don't beleive i'm superior to the person next to me, or someone on the streets, etc. In a way, your ethnocentric because I can't get it past you that Islam is good, you beleive whatever you beleive in and think it's superior than Islam. And you know what, that's fine with me because according to Islam on the day of Judgement we are all going to have to answer to God, and we are all accountable for our actions.
I don't expect you to understand what I'm talking about because to me it seems that you only want to see the bad in Islam, but you should at least try and respect others religions and their beliefs. We have our beliefs and i can't answer your questions coherently because i don't feel you know about Islam enough and are not open to understanding our views and teachings. In a way that proves of your ignorance towards Islam.
Oh one more thing, I'm not going to reply to any more quotes/replies because It's ridiculous to have religious threads on an Anime/Drama site, especially when there is so much ignoramus, stereotypical, media- and internet-induced rubbish going around.
And I rest my case, QED:
Oh please. Give me a break will you. Your not debating issues already in discussion, your bringing up completely new things that doesn't have anything to do with what the thread is actually about. And that diagram you have there is RUBBISH. I'm a Muslim and i'm studying Evolutionary biology along with other things. Evolutionary biology is the basis of my degree and also something that contradicts a lot of religions out there. Your not supposed to compare science and faith. Every knowledgeable person knows this. Its how you comprehend the situation is how it matters. Its useless if your trying to make me beleive science over everything. Like science is the answer to everything. Let me ask you this - Who made science?
Who made nature what it is today? Who created the first single-celled organism, that supposedly, evolved into everything today? Who made that LUCA? Who made chemistry, physics, mathematics, biology, and everything that we have in the world today?
To me, and many other people, the answer is God. And if you want to ask Who made God, then mate, i suggest you start thinking, because that's the beauty and miracle of religion. Like i said, you clearly don't have an understanding of anything other than your hyper-links. And you didn't have a case in the first place.
Edit: In response to what you replied to Drizza, There is logic behind everything, even Islam and its teachings... You don't see it, many people don't see it... I may not even understand it totally, but there is logic. Believe it or not. It is only HE who has taught us Islam that knows the "logic" behind everything. But hey, only us "ethnocentric" people who beleive we're superior to everyone and everything in the world would think something like this wouldn't we. Then God is the perfect monkey, to the extreme. Until then, you have no metaphysical evidence of a supernatural existence. When you yourself don't even have an argument based on a clear and distinct idea of your superstition.
Finally, look who just came crawling back for more. After how she made a fuss about "It's ridiculous to have religious threads on an Anime/Drama site, especially when there is so much ignoramus, stereotypical, media- and internet-induced rubbish going around". So how are you trumping with that Islamic martyrdom of yours? Feeling vindicated much? If the logic needed in order to "believe" is simply to have "blind faith", then what's not stopping you to just believe in any and all propositions? What's not making you to believe in the possibility that you're arguing to your god right now? What is the purpose of a man's own nipples? When men don't lactate. How can a mere unchanged religious teaching be serving as a reservoir of knowledge about real complexities based on the law of non-contradiction?
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To get the books, they must first purchase it. The Publishers, who are probably, ironically, Mahometans, will make tonnes of money from they symbolic 'fuck you' to Islam. It's just like going to Walmart, buying an American Flag, and then taking to the street and burning it.
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drizza wrote:
Spoiler Alert! Click to show or hide DomFortress wrote:
T-Rish wrote:
DomFortress wrote:
Spoiler Alert! Click to show or hide T-Rish wrote:
I'm just going to say this:
1. People who aren't Muslim or are non-believers will not understand the Qur'an unless they have an open mind about it. There are places in the Qur'an where many people (mostly those who refuse to understand the religion and try to condemn the holy verses for "false" statements and/or violence) misinterpret the meanings. If you're not a philosopher - and i do say that lightly since you don't need to be a philosopher to gain deep understandings for things - then your not going to be able to put together what most Muslims have learnt throughout our lives. And if you can learn things without letting false media stereotypes and worldly circumstances get in your way, then Masha-Allah, i'm happy for ya. How do you think so many people are reverting (converting) to Islam? But if you can't understand the significance of Islam, even if you think you've "researched" the Qur'an and you can't go any "deeper" than you already have, then your not putting much effort into understanding it with an open mind - as if you want to accept it as your religion. It's the same thing with every religion - Hypothetically, If i go and research about the Bible, gospel, scriptures or whatever, i will most probably look at the "bad" things first and judge the whole religion by it. Why? Because i'm not open to accepting and understanding another religion (which is totally not true, if i hear something about another religion and be like "oh ok so thats why it happens, I'm a pretty accepting person. But Islam is the only religion for me).
2. Hadiths are NOT the words of Allah (God). YOU CANNOT REPLACE IT'S WORDS FOR THE QUR'ANS. Hadiths are like narratives which usually depict "true" stories. Notice the quotation marks - yea...all hadith's are written, compiled and interpreted by people who lived years after the Prophet did - so what exactly is the point of reading something not from God directly and allowing it to falsify the word of God? Especially when stories passed over from generation to generation and can resemble a game of chinese whispers over hundreds of years. Another thing about hadiths is that, no matter how true a story sounds, every single different hadith out there are written by different people - different scholars, Imaam's, etc. Believe not what may have been subject to change in the past, present or future. But believe the word of God which is timeless and forever true, as He has said that no man, jinn or angel can change the Qur'an (go google this since i can't be bothered finding the verse that states this).
3. Committing suicide is FORBIDDEN in Islam. Doing this is a one-way ticket to hell. No, Jihad does not come under the section of committing suicide. Comitting suicide is not Matyrdom. They have differences which are often confused. What the people in Iran, Iraq, Palestine, Afghanistan, etc., are doing is WRONG. Suicide bombing = ticket to hell. Jihad = Martyr = Heaven. Suicide bombing does not = Jihad; therefore no heaven. Is that clear? A lot of people nowadays are confusing political garb with religion. And most of these times Islam gets used as a sort of scapegoat for politicians and people who want power and wealth. This is why Islam is almost always branded a violent religion in the media, because the media focuses on the "news" which mostly happens to be bad news. Journalisms a bitch in that way. It's not supposed to work that way. The people corrupt the people, Allah does not - His words DO NOT. Jihad is not something to be taken as lightly as what's happening in the world today. It should only come up in a last resort situation, which i'm pretty sure this middle-eastern "religious" war thing isn't a last resort situation since words can be exchanged without violent interferences. In short, a lot of Muslims wouldn't even think of these extremists or terrorists as Muslims because of the false reputation they're are Islam and disregarding the peace and loving religion it is supposed to be. We are NOT allowed to wage war first - EVER. We are NOT supposed to solve things with violence unless there is no other way - and in such situations the other party must become violent first. This rule applies for many things as well as this - It is our duty as a Muslim to explain, and make others understand, and to keep peace. We should do so three times before allowing violence to lead between two groups/people. Go to #4
4. As for the Islamic laws so many people like to bring up... Why is it that laws made hundreds of years ago when violence was used to deal with violence is being brought up over and over again? Like seriously, how many people still cut off hands for people who steal? Some middle-eastern countries do, and that is mostly because of ignorance and the fact that doing these things will inflict fear into people minds (which usually means they like to have power over the people). Things like this just comes down to common sense regarding the era we live in. Every justice system has their good and bad bits, and quite genuinely, i like the Islamic Shari'ah. A lot of the laws are canonical in the sense that it still works for today's society as well as it did for the past society. If i were to compare the Islamic laws to the laws of the American Justice system; one example is the death penalty. If someone murders someone then they should be in jail for life + the death penalty? I think that's harsh in this modern era. So what if someone is a psychotic killer, do they really deserve to die? Can't they just stay in jail and get help, and if they can't be helped, can't the just stay in jail until they die? Justice can't always be served, and every place or religion have their own laws. Some are harsh and others aren't. You just gotta accept that. As for the countires that are composed solely on the Islamic shari'ah in this time and era...in fact any place that does this...obviously there's something wrong with that. And we see it as wrong or inhumane because we've been "westernised" and have a different POV of things. Just like if you go and live with tribes and people that are still pretty much going about their lives the same ways their ancestors did and using the same laws as them and stuff, we'll find it wrong, but to them its normal.
In a way, we are shaped by the society we live in, the time, the place, the personalities closest to us. So what reason do we have to object others' ways of life and not understand what they are just because they aren't the same as us or don't have the same views as us?
Think about it.
Here's where you don't get the logic of non-contradiction, as in when you unwisely claiming that all opinions are equal, you uncritically made all opinions are equally stupid when they don't work. But is that a factual claim based on reality?
For example, why should there even be a capital punishment/death penalty? When the reality is that it just doesn't work to solve crime in the US; capital of punishment.
When the laws of a society doesn't change, the society itself doesn't change either. Thereby when you have a patriarchy Muslim society that promote gender inequality, look what happens with the state of Muslim womanhood as according to their Islamic faith as the fundamental philosophy for their legislation.
Also, I find your downplaying the importance of philosophy very irrational. Because you're going against your very own Islamic teaching of valuing knowledge.
Finally can you see just how incredible the religious tradition of the "after-life" or "reincarnation" as a cultural norms during primary socialization, can make individuals pretty much disregard their current life as is? Furthermore, when the religious system of justification lies beyond the individuals' comprehension as both supernatural and metaphysical in existence, we're pretty much looking at a religious moral code of conduct that's incapable of yielding any natural and physical result within an individuals' given lifetime. How's that for a superstitious scapegoat? Pretty ethnocentric, wouldn't you agreed?
Spoiler Alert! Click to show or hide That first statement is as retarded as retarded can get - In my opinion anyway. Everyone has their own opinions, but you don't see me blowing up in each persons face contradicting their thoughts with mine. That's the reason i didn't quote anyone in this thread, because to me everyone is entitled to have their own opinion. You can answer that question yourself because all it takes is some common sense. And about capital punishment, i just said that i don't agree with things as such. You seem to me as someone who doesn't like to look at the whole picture, but instead try to find bits and pieces which you can manipulate and think your opposer has said the wrong thing.
You have it wrong: When the society doesn't change, neither do their laws. It's not the other way around. Islam doesn't encourage gender inequality, it promotes the equality of men and women both. I'm going to ask you something, Have you actually read the whole Qur'an instead of finding snippets or verses you pick out from internet sources or the articles you like to hyperlink? And don't even try to lie to me by saying that you have, because someone who has read it knows that Allah created differences between men and women. What one may not be good at, the other is good at. We were made to compliment each other - Two halves of a whole. Three of those hyperlinks were based on what's happening in Iran (and i have already stated Iran as a country that has a lot of problems mainly because they confuse religion and politics in the path to attain power and wealth). Another thing about Iran is that although it is mostly populated with muslims, 89% of the muslims are of the Shia class whereas only 9% is Sunni (source: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ir.html). I'm going to assume your uneducated about the differences between these two "classes" and explain that the Shia class often contradict the teachings of Islam and the guidance of the Prophet Muhammed (S.A.W.) (no offence intended to any Shia's out there). We have been taught to follow Allah's words and use the life of the Prophet as a guidance to how we should live our life (and one would know when to follow this rule literally and when things should be taken practically).
I was not downplaying the importance of philosophy. I said that "...you don't need to be a philosopher to gain deep understandings for things...". There is a significant difference. this just proves to me that you don't read and interpret things correctly.
1. There is no reincarnation in Islam.
2. You live in a time and era where things have changed radically since the revelation of the Qur'an. Sure we should follow the Islamic Shari'ah, but im pretty sure that many people, including myself and many other learned Muslims, wouldn't agree on the punishment one person can give to another. Being a judge for such punishments, you know that your accountable to answer to Allah about why a punishment was given or why a law was carried out, and your justification must be commendable since you would have to decide something which could very much change an individuals life. We should not try and take into our hands another person fate. But if it isn't avoidable, then we should do so with extreme caution. The morality in Islam of such things doesn't really contradict the morals we have gained from today's society. As i have said before, times have changed! Those who cannot perceive the peace the Islamic Shari'ah is supposed to bring and rules unjustly will be dealt with in the after-life by the only One who can. It is He who the the Just, the All-knower, the All-seer, the Merciful.
Another thing, it is said that there will only be a few TRUE Muslims left in the world when the Day of Judgement nears. All I can say is that have the Islamic population may not be true Muslims at the moment. Hell, i don't even know if I'm a true Muslim. What i do know is that I am trying to be the best Muslim i can be and i know that i will be rewarded for it in the after-life. And what do you mean by ethnocentric? That is indubitably the stupidest comment i have heard. In my eyes, Yes i do find Islam the superior religion. You go to a Christian and they'd be "ethnocentric" too. Go to a scientist, they'll probably beleive science is the greatest and above all other things. However, i don't beleive i'm superior to the person next to me, or someone on the streets, etc. In a way, your ethnocentric because I can't get it past you that Islam is good, you beleive whatever you beleive in and think it's superior than Islam. And you know what, that's fine with me because according to Islam on the day of Judgement we are all going to have to answer to God, and we are all accountable for our actions.
I don't expect you to understand what I'm talking about because to me it seems that you only want to see the bad in Islam, but you should at least try and respect others religions and their beliefs. We have our beliefs and i can't answer your questions coherently because i don't feel you know about Islam enough and are not open to understanding our views and teachings. In a way that proves of your ignorance towards Islam.
Oh one more thing, I'm not going to reply to any more quotes/replies because It's ridiculous to have religious threads on an Anime/Drama site, especially when there is so much ignoramus, stereotypical, media- and internet-induced rubbish going around.
And I rest my case, QED:
The thing about you Dom I have notice is you dont address any issues at all anyone points out but merely jump over it. With this response I see that you posted doesnt dismantle anything the user has stated. My question to you is exactly what are you debating here? Now to me as much as you accuse muslim for pushing their faith on you, you indeed are a hypocrite as you are doing the same with that picture you just put up. Good for you that your an Aethiest Dom shall we reward you a cracker? No muslim on this forum cares if you are because to me this is what your slowly trying to turn this into. This is about Quran being burned and to me like I stated earlier is just an attempt to anger muslims. Muslims should not be angered at all is the Quran is only TEXT, it is the teachings that should remain forever. I dont know how other muslims will react but hopefully they wont give the media what they want which is anger and violence.
Actually I always thought Domfortress have always make good points and Darkphoenix or even Domfortress and many others in this CR have always been consistent in their theological views although I thought they could be a little more sensitive, whether it is secular or non-secular. I be honest and say that I heard of this 'Holy book burning party' but not know much about it.
Regarding this issue of burning of Quran, the muslim's holy book, from what I gather from asking, Muslims were more bemused rather than being angry about this. There were some who were angry because of the meaning behind these burnings but the general feeling I got was that there were far worst things that could be done with the Quran , throwing in toilet, spitting on it, etc but burning not so. Disposal of muslim's religious text which were spoilt or torn were often done by burning. Ironic isn't it.
Still just like you say, the meaning behind the burning was to incite a response from the Muslim community and if you look closely the people generally behind such demonstrations are the religious ones and while Domfortress or many others have strong non-religious views but I always found the religious ones to be more pushy and judgmental and destructive in their views and actions.
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Well I am against book burning recycle any book of any religion I do not care. The books stores and all the publishing companies out there will love for it. This is called supply and demand another words Capitalism the best system out there all Hail to the mighty whatever your currency is. I say to the dollar but that a dumb bet in fact gold would be a better bet. or other precious metals. By the way I don not like any group Ideology from atheist to all religions. I have my own thought on many of these subjects but to be lumped into a group that like taking the collective IQ of a group and divided by 2 and that the IQ of the group or mob. Maybe that why so many mental cases kill in the name of what ever the cause is. Most these clown that kill in the name of any religion would kill some body just to do it, bunch of nut jobs out there.
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I say burn the Twilight books, which probably have more followers than Islam by now.
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jandarujora wrote:
I say burn the Twilight books, which probably have more followers than Islam by now.
And how will you burn away such a great force in this world? The Twilight moms alone are the most ravenous fanatics since those who knocked over the World Trade Center.
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30256 cr points
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"I mean ask yourself, have you ever really seen a really happy Muslim? As they're on the way to Mecca? As they gather together in the mosque on the floor? Does it look like a real religion of joy?" - Jones
How would he know when he's not even a Muslim to begin with.
Hmmm, maybe I'll start launching a "Burning the Holy Bible Day" which would be celebrated in the 25th day of December. ;D
Post tons of how all Christians are sexually obsessed with a Jew named Jesus Christ and how they force everyone around them to swallow their poorly written fictitious book.
If Christ died for my sins then why do you call me a sinner? – TheXroadr
Gawsh
I wish I could personally strangle them pedo preachers and force them to answer questions they don't want to hear. |
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Phyzjob wrote:
"I mean ask yourself, have you ever really seen a really happy Muslim? As they're on the way to Mecca? As they gather together in the mosque on the floor? Does it look like a real religion of joy?" - Jones
How would he know when he's not even a Muslim to begin with.
Hmmm, maybe I'll start launching a "Burning the Holy Bible Day" which would be celebrated in the 25th day of December. ;D
Post tons of how all Christians are sexually obsessed with a Jew named Jesus Christ and how they force everyone around them to swallow their poorly written fictitious book.
If Christ died for my sins then why do you call me a sinner? – TheXroadr
Gawsh
I wish I could personally strangle them pedo preachers and force them to answer questions they don't want to hear.
Conventional logic ceases when certain faiths are introduced into everything. God did not create me, yet he did create all these imbeciles wrongfully touting their psychotic dogma.
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This event is sooo beautifull ironic.
The chance that these people got those qurans from muslims is very very very slim, so where did they come from?
From stores, they bought a whole bunch of qurans and the people who made money from it are?
Probably muslims
So what's gonna happen next? Well since the quran sold so much that month there will be more of them made and sent to the stores
Perhaps this is a way off advertising your book.
I think the next books that shall be burned are indeed twillight, but then by the publishers, so that they can sell even more
PS, this realisation has put me in a wonderfull mood. |
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F / Ѵσσ∂σσ Ƭɛит
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you racists piss me off so goddamn much.
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Racism? No, we were discussing religion, not ethnicity.
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