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Outlawing Abortion

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Posted 12/10/18 , edited 12/11/18
Why does a clump of cells have more rights than a women? If I put an egg and a sperm cell in a petri dish, does it have more rights than a person?
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Posted 12/10/18 , edited 12/10/18
A woman died as a result of shock after attempting to force a miscarriage through mechanical methods. Outlawing abortion is an out-of-date, theocratic, political ideology to force other people to succumb to the whims of a few peoples' sky daddy and make them feel better about the results of lawful cell termination. It needs to be legalized because we know that making something illegal increases desire and forces people to adopt black market methods which are proven to often be fatal.

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/personal-history/my-grandmothers-desperate-choice
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Posted 12/11/18 , edited 12/11/18

MysticGon wrote:

A 16 year old boy killed a 17 year old girl because she waited too long to tell her about the pregnancy to get an abortion. Abortion to some people is just a tool to make their life more convenient. It needs to be outlawed because of people like that who see life as fodder and abuse it.


That incident is far more relevant to India's backwards attitudes regarding it's treatment of women then anything else. If he was willing to kill her to avoid having to be a parent, I don't see how abortion being illegal would have helped that situation.
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Posted 12/11/18 , edited 12/11/18

FlyinDumpling wrote:

Why does a clump of cells have more rights than a women? If I put an egg and a sperm cell in a petri dish, does it have more rights than a person?


It shouldn't have more rights. It should have the same rights, because a women is also a "clump of cells". One of those rights is a right to life. A fetus is no less alive and no less human than an adult man or adult woman. No, in the early stages it can't survive outside the womb, but if you isolate a human without food/water/air you have the same result as well. If we had the technology to grow a human from an "egg and sperm in a petri dish", then would you then switch your opinion to say abortion should be illegal, since we should be able prevent the death of a fetus removed prematurely. If not, then at what stage of development would you say that the "egg and sperm in a petri dish" should be afforded human rights?
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Posted 12/11/18 , edited 12/11/18

ishe5555 wrote:

It shouldn't have more rights. It should have the same rights, because a women is also a "clump of cells".


The woman can think and feel. The clump of cells in a petri dish cannot.


A fetus is no less alive and no less human than an adult man or adult woman.


That's an opinion.


No, in the early stages it can't survive outside the womb, but if you isolate a human without food/water/air you have the same result as well.


Not relevant. Viability is determined primarily by brain activity.


If we had the technology to grow a human from an "egg and sperm in a petri dish", then would you then switch your opinion to say abortion should be illegal, since we should be able prevent the death of a fetus removed prematurely.


Nope. There area already laws protecting a fetus in the womb if it is killed when a parent intends to keep it (I'm simplifying, admittedly, but that's a good enough explanation for this argument I think). I imagine the same laws would apply to test tube babies.


If not, then at what stage of development would you say that the "egg and sperm in a petri dish" should be afforded human rights?


Viability is determined primarily by brain activity.
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Posted 12/11/18 , edited 12/11/18
A human fetus being human is not an opinion.
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Posted 12/11/18 , edited 12/11/18

MysticGon wrote:

A human fetus being human is not an opinion.


You are correct. However, that isn't what Ishe said, nor is it relevant to this conversation.

Also, I'm highly amused by your apparent inability to respond to anything else I've said in my last two posts.
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Posted 12/11/18 , edited 12/11/18

MysticGon wrote:

A human fetus being human is not an opinion.


But a zygot is not a fetus so your argument is invalid.
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Posted 12/11/18 , edited 12/11/18

MysticGon wrote:

A 16 year old boy killed a 17 year old girl because she waited too long to tell her about the pregnancy to get an abortion. Abortion to some people is just a tool to make their life more convenient. It needs to be outlawed because of people like that who see life as fodder and abuse it.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/indiana-teen-16-arrested-in-killing-of-pregnant-high-school-cheerleader


Just saying but I don't think he killed him because he saw 'life as fodder' just because he knew that the baby would not only get him into a lot of trouble but that he would also have to financially support the baby which would lead him into crippling debt and ruin his life. Not that I sympathise with him what he did was definitely wrong but that doesn't mean abortion should be outlawed.
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Posted 12/20/18 , edited 12/20/18

hazerddex wrote:



But a zygot is not a fetus so your argument is invalid.


A human zygote is also a human. Not a matter of opinion. All humans deserve humans. If you kill one then you are a murderer.

“[All] organisms, however large and complex they might be as full grown, begin life as a single cell. This is true for the human being, for instance, who begins life as a fertilized ovum.” Dr. Morris Krieger “The Human Reproductive System” p 88 (1969) Sterling Pub. Co

“Thus a new cell is formed from the union of a male and a female gamete. [sperm and egg cells] The cell, referred to as the zygote, contains a new combination of genetic material
, resulting in an individual different from either parent and from anyone else in the world.” Sally B Olds, et al., Obstetric Nursing (Menlo Park, California: Addison – Wesley pu
blishing, 1980) P 136


"Although life is a continuous process, fertilization is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed..
.. The combination of 23 chromosomes present in each pronucleus results in 46 chromosomes in the zygote. Thus the diploid number is restored and the embryonic genome is formed. T
he embryo now exists as a genetic unity." [O'Rahilly, Ronan and M�ller, Fabiola. Human Embryology & Teratology. 2nd edition. New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996, pp. 8, 29



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Posted 12/20/18 , edited 12/20/18

MysticGon wrote:

A 16 year old boy killed a 17 year old girl because she waited too long to tell her about the pregnancy to get an abortion. Abortion to some people is just a tool to make their life more convenient. It needs to be outlawed because of people like that who see life as fodder and abuse it.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/indiana-teen-16-arrested-in-killing-of-pregnant-high-school-cheerleader


People have seen other people as fodder and subhuman for eternity. Getting rid of slavery in the West has not changed that. We still have bigots who dehumanize others on some BS, arbitrary grounds. Like these ignoramuses who don't understand that being human is about more than one stage of development in one specific organ. They hate science just like they hate the pre-born who inconvenience them.

On a brighter note, people with actual souls are starting to take off the kid gloves, now that the bigots have massacred almost 60 million innocents. It's refreshing to see that people are starting to call it as it is: murder. We need more people doing this. The biggest issue I take is his use of the euphemism "clinic". It's an extermination center.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXA3xuArVWQ
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Posted 12/20/18 , edited 12/20/18

karatecowboy wrote:


hazerddex wrote:



But a zygot is not a fetus so your argument is invalid.


A human zygote is also a human. Not a matter of opinion. All humans deserve humans. If you kill one then you are a murderer.

“[All] organisms, however large and complex they might be as full grown, begin life as a single cell. This is true for the human being, for instance, who begins life as a fertilized ovum.” Dr. Morris Krieger “The Human Reproductive System” p 88 (1969) Sterling Pub. Co

“Thus a new cell is formed from the union of a male and a female gamete. [sperm and egg cells] The cell, referred to as the zygote, contains a new combination of genetic material
, resulting in an individual different from either parent and from anyone else in the world.” Sally B Olds, et al., Obstetric Nursing (Menlo Park, California: Addison – Wesley pu
blishing, 1980) P 136


"Although life is a continuous process, fertilization is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed..
.. The combination of 23 chromosomes present in each pronucleus results in 46 chromosomes in the zygote. Thus the diploid number is restored and the embryonic genome is formed. T
he embryo now exists as a genetic unity." [O'Rahilly, Ronan and M�ller, Fabiola. Human Embryology & Teratology. 2nd edition. New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996, pp. 8, 29





wrong under the definition of sentient a zygote is no more sentient then a microbe it has no brain no centural nervous system . which under biological definitions are not sentient.



a fetus doesn't exist until 4 weeks later.
by your own logic morning after pills and all the other birth control commonly practiced is also murder which it is not.

a cluster of cells =/= a human child.

a virus is a cluster of cells bacteria is a cluster of cells neither of them have any self awareness or form of sentience.
if you think a cluster of human cells that are not an actual fetus human child adult or elder and that getting removed is murder then we are all murderers because our body kills off our own cells all the time. for example your skin cells which by your own logic are now actual humans are killed and replaced constantly same with your muscles. blood cells and so on.

maybe look up what a zygote is before equating it to a fetus.

also your using a quote not even actual papers from the 1969.

are you trying to claim modern science know less about the human body then a single doctor in the 60s?

the 2nd qoute says nothing about it being alive and is talking about a later stage in the zygote changes. see image above
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Posted 12/20/18 , edited 12/20/18
Gonna point out, even if you were the only person on the earth who could save someone by donating a kidney, the law doesn't have the right to force you to give up your kidney. If a life cannot live without your body parts, the law actually protects you and your ability to remain autonomous.

Forced birth is like forced human organ and blood donation.

Who cares if it inadvertently kills people that you don't want to donate your body to help something else live. It isn't murder.
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Posted 12/21/18 , edited 12/21/18
Sorry, I don't eat eggs. There are just some things that don't belong in your mouth. A chicken's last ditch effort to take us down. The issue here is how to seriously build a society where we rear children. If I don't want to live in a world where people are reasonable I probably shouldn't behave like a rational person. On the other hand being irrational also has its benefits. I feel like a body scrub.

Roosters are scary. I hear every time one caws someone gets an abortion.
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Posted 27 days ago , edited 26 days ago

hazerddex wrote:

wrong under the definition of sentient a zygote is no more sentient then a microbe it has no brain no centural nervous system . which under biological definitions are not sentient.

a fetus doesn't exist until 4 weeks later.
by your own logic morning after pills and all the other birth control commonly practiced is also murder which it is not.

a cluster of cells =/= a human child.

a virus is a cluster of cells bacteria is a cluster of cells neither of them have any self awareness or form of sentience.
if you think a cluster of human cells that are not an actual fetus human child adult or elder and that getting removed is murder then we are all murderers because our body kills off our own cells all the time. for example your skin cells which by your own logic are now actual humans are killed and replaced constantly same with your muscles. blood cells and so on.

maybe look up what a zygote is before equating it to a fetus.

also your using a quote not even actual papers from the 1969.

are you trying to claim modern science know less about the human body then a single doctor in the 60s?

the 2nd qoute says nothing about it being alive and is talking about a later stage in the zygote changes. see image above


First, to be clear: I'm not using my own definitions here. I am using medical science's and biology's definitions here. I did not make up any definitions here. On the other hand, you are using your own special definitions when you say 'under the definition of sentient' and then denying them their humanity.

A human zygote is a living individual of the species. They are human, being the offspring of other humans. They are living, being living organisms. As the first textbook quote says "[All] organisms, however large and complex they might be as full grown, begin life as a single cell". But hey, since you don't understand science, and think it somehow 'goes bad' with time, here is another quote:

“Every human being alive today and, as far as is known scientifically, every human being that ever existed, began his or her unique existence in this manner, i.e., as one cell. If this first cell or any subsequent configuration of cells perishes, the individual dies, ceasing to exist in matter as a living being. There are no known exceptions to this rule in the field of human biology.” Human Life and Health Care Ethics, Vol. 2

And another, from the scientific journal Nature
“The life cycle of mammals begins when a sperm enters an egg.” Okada et al., A role for the elongator complex in zygotic paternal genome demethylation, NATURE 463:554 (Jan. 28, 2010)

Here's another one:
“It is the penetration of the ovum by a sperm and the resulting mingling of nuclear material each brings to the union that constitutes the initiation of the life of a new individual.” Clark Edward and Corliss Patten’s Human Embryology, McGraw – Hill Inc., 30


Humans are mammals. We exist upon fertilization aka conception. The whole 'sentience' thing is quasi spiritual pseudoscience used to justify bigotry against the preborn. The brain is a body part. You're trying to tell me that a member of a species is not a member of a species because a certain body part of that species has not developed to a point yet. That's ignorant bigotry.

On a side note, viruses are not cells, much less a cluster of cells.
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