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What is your unpopular anime opinion?

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Posted 1/26/17 , edited 1/26/17

RedDauntless wrote:
Princess Tutu is a better dark meta magical girl anime than Madoka.


This.




Insomnist wrote:


qualeshia3 wrote:

Brotherhood follows the manga while the 2003 FMA does not. You prefer a filler to the original?

I think there's a subtle but important difference between filler and an anime-only ending. The first, by design, occurs between canon arcs which it cannot conflict with so it is extremely limited both in what it can do and the impact it can have, since it's something that essentially didn't happen and will have no continuity with the rest of the story. But it's different when a story either runs out of, or intentionally departs from, the original to make an anime-only continuity.

Obviously the list of times this has been done successfully enough to win fans is very tiny I'd imagine, but I know Kekkai Sensen did it very successfully and if FMA 2003 also lands on that list for a number of people more power to it imo.


This, except it's not a subtle difference.

I love the phenomenon of anime-only endings, and I sort of wish they still did them instead of this ridiculous no-ending, go-read-the-books thing they do nowadays. It was always so interesting to see two different writers' take on the same material.

But of course, fandom, being it's typical horribly stupid self, always hated them. You know, some were bad. The Cardcaptor Sakura anime is awful, and the manga is brilliant and deserves a remake. Black Butler II, whatever that was, was pretty... special. (though I've actually come back to appreciating the first series' ending, 2008-TV-quality-animation though it is) But some were really good, like FMA 2003.

........ you know, I'm sensing a pattern here. FMA, Chrono Crusade, Black Butler, DNAngel... the anime-only endings tend to be more... angels-and-demons, apocalyptic... Verdi-esque scale, almost. (Evangelion-esque?) I feel like it's a difference in tastes between anime artists/industry and manga artists.

.............
I also feel like the manga for Black Butler is sort of closer to a typical anime style story than a typical manga style story. I need to read Pandora Hearts, which seems like that, too. I need to finish the manga of Soul Eater, because I don't know what happens after the split from the anime enough to judge (I just know there's genderbends in one arc).
I've honestly never been that interested in D.Greyman but maybe I should try it, for the sake of analyzing this phenomenon.

But yes. Original anime material is not the same as filler. Being the "original" - being a direct adaptation - is not necessary to make an anime valid.

Also, the best anime are original, with no source material (Code Geass, Princess Tutu, K, .... I'm not particularly a fan of it, but I'll throw Evangelion into this, too. And Utena. Most anime movies that aren't connected to a TV series (e.g. Ghibli (except for Howl's Moving Castle, which is based on a book, and the book was way better), Mamoru Hosoda, Shinkai, etc. For more TV examples, Eden of the East, most of Urobuchi's work (though, again... not a fan))

Also... I found someone else who likes Valvrave, I was so happy <3<3<3
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Posted 1/26/17 , edited 1/26/17
Last I heard, a lot of people like the dub for Code Geass. I for one think it's cancer. Except for Charles. Charles sounds pretty good in English.
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Posted 1/26/17 , edited 1/26/17


LavenderMintRose wrote:


RedDauntless wrote:
Princess Tutu is a better dark meta magical girl anime than Madoka.


This.




Insomnist wrote:


qualeshia3 wrote:

Brotherhood follows the manga while the 2003 FMA does not. You prefer a filler to the original?

I think there's a subtle but important difference between filler and an anime-only ending. The first, by design, occurs between canon arcs which it cannot conflict with so it is extremely limited both in what it can do and the impact it can have, since it's something that essentially didn't happen and will have no continuity with the rest of the story. But it's different when a story either runs out of, or intentionally departs from, the original to make an anime-only continuity.

Obviously the list of times this has been done successfully enough to win fans is very tiny I'd imagine, but I know Kekkai Sensen did it very successfully and if FMA 2003 also lands on that list for a number of people more power to it imo.


This, except it's not a subtle difference.

I love the phenomenon of anime-only endings, and I sort of wish they still did them instead of this ridiculous no-ending, go-read-the-books thing they do nowadays. It was always so interesting to see two different writers' take on the same material.

But of course, fandom, being it's typical horribly stupid self, always hated them. You know, some were bad. The Cardcaptor Sakura anime is awful, and the manga is brilliant and deserves a remake. Black Butler II, whatever that was, was pretty... special. (though I've actually come back to appreciating the first series' ending, 2008-TV-quality-animation though it is) But some were really good, like FMA 2003.

........ you know, I'm sensing a pattern here. FMA, Chrono Crusade, Black Butler, DNAngel... the anime-only endings tend to be more... angels-and-demons, apocalyptic... Verdi-esque scale, almost. (Evangelion-esque?) I feel like it's a difference in tastes between anime artists/industry and manga artists.

.............
I also feel like the manga for Black Butler is sort of closer to a typical anime style story than a typical manga style story. I need to read Pandora Hearts, which seems like that, too. I need to finish the manga of Soul Eater, because I don't know what happens after the split from the anime enough to judge (I just know there's genderbends in one arc).
I've honestly never been that interested in D.Greyman but maybe I should try it, for the sake of analyzing this phenomenon.

But yes. Original anime material is not the same as filler. Being the "original" - being a direct adaptation - is not necessary to make an anime valid.

Also, the best anime are original, with no source material (Code Geass, Princess Tutu, K, .... I'm not particularly a fan of it, but I'll throw Evangelion into this, too. And Utena. Most anime movies that aren't connected to a TV series (e.g. Ghibli (except for Howl's Moving Castle, which is based on a book, and the book was way better), Mamoru Hosoda, Shinkai, etc. For more TV examples, Eden of the East, most of Urobuchi's work (though, again... not a fan))

Also... I found someone else who likes Valvrave, I was so happy <3<3<3



I think I need to make a distinction here.

I don't think at FMA is objectively mediocre or that the anime-ending in 2003 was in some way superior to the author's original intent. There's a kind of debate in film studies today which questions the impact of formal narrative of a story. And while I think there are technical flaws able to be assessed in narrative, and dear god do we love to look for them, it doesn't account for everything.

You can have something that you know does everything technically right, was planned perfectly, and works for everyone, and still have difficultly connecting with it. And I have seen people accept this for every anime under the sun except FMA. I'm not surprised by this. It's kind of like saying The Godfather Part II is your least favorite in the franchise. Blasphemy. In the end, your reasons for liking and not liking things simply cannot depend on the material alone. I wasn't burnt out on hype, I didn't have any prior relationship with FMA before I watched it. I'm not trying to be edgy or different, I legitimately feel apathetic about the experience. I couldn't tell you why. That's just how things happened. That show means a lot to a lot of people, but not really to me, so I can't really speak to it that well.

And that's why this forum exists. I've never felt comfortable sharing this with others, because people take this stuff very seriously. As a film student you're kind of expected to have the same opinions as everyone else or else your "tastes" will be called into question and thus your "objective critical capabilities." Which is dumb, but I understand why. So thank you for the response

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Posted 1/26/17 , edited 1/26/17
On a positive note, my unpopular opinion is that I think Shinji Ikari is a really great character and I love him!
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Posted 1/26/17 , edited 1/26/17

RedDauntless wrote:

As a film student you're kind of expected to have the same opinions as everyone else or else your "tastes" will be called into question and thus your "objective critical capabilities."



That's sad. Because... there are objective things, but an individual's connection with the piece will always be more of a deciding force than that.

Objective things will never make you excited about a thing. You get excited about a piece when it hits your taste. If you get excited when a movie, say, uses color, or camera work, or music, really well, then that's what appeals to you taste-wise. It happens to be a thing that's considered a criteria on which movies should be objectively judged, and it also happens to be a thing that hits your taste.

Neither is wrong, and people who want to act like it's somehow intellectually inferior to get excited about things... that's dumb.

As long as you can get excited about it and recognize its technical flaws. As long as you can get excited about it, and still realize why it just doesn't work for some people, because it just hits your taste and not theirs. If that's the case, they should also be able to recognize that when you talk about the work's positive features, you are saying so objectively and not just because it's your taste.

If people try to shame someone for having taste and getting excited about things, that's... pathetic. I'm not even going to say it's sad, because saying it's sad is giving that sentiment too much respect. It's just pathetic. (It's also why I don't like academia, because those sorts of attitudes have pretty completely taken over nowadays...)

However, with anime fans, the reason they're so aggressive towards FMA03 is actually because of shows like Naruto and Bleach. Those shows didn't want to create new endings, because they didn't want to end them, because those shows make tons of money. So what they would do when they caught up with the manga is, they would create new story arcs to go in between the manga material, which would be really shallow and silly and appeal to the show's real target audience - 10 year olds - as opposed to the adult periphery demographic who felt that they should be catered to.
So - like true, mature adults - they have this ridiculous, irrational hate for any anime-original material in anime based on manga.

Which is really sad.

I saw this one anime recently that's based on one of my favorite manga arcs ever, and I was really disappointed. It was exactly like the manga - panel for frame, exactly. It really felt like reading the manga, but with voice acting. The animation was standard quality, nothing special, but it really should have been special. That manga deserves special. But instead of doing something artistic and innovative and special with it, they went for "accuracy", because apparently that's what fans like. I think it's sad.
I also think there should be more side stores with this manga, because there have been at least three good ones, but they probably won't do it, because fans will dismiss it as "filler".

Anime fans are just pathetic sometimes.

Also... person who says they don't like the Geass dub... I'm just sort of laughing because, talk about typical anime fan knee-jerk hate. I swear, most of the dub haters watch the subbed version with the sound off. Or maybe when you don't speak any Japanese, you really don't notice how bad the acting is. Not that all English dubs are better - I'd say both have about 10% phenomenal, 30% good, 60% bad acting. Code Geass is one of the "phenomenal" ones in English... as is FMA03, for that matter. (Best in Japanese? .... Valvrave. No, seriously. The voice acting in that is amazing. L-elf <3)
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Posted 1/26/17 , edited 1/26/17

LavenderMintRose wrote:

I love the phenomenon of anime-only endings, and I sort of wish they still did them instead of this ridiculous no-ending, go-read-the-books thing they do nowadays. It was always so interesting to see two different writers' take on the same material.

But of course, fandom, being it's typical horribly stupid self, always hated them.

That's because Anime Only content is on the same level as Fanfiction. Their both non canon garbage.
If you want to know what happens, seriously go read the books.
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Posted 1/26/17 , edited 2/12/19

BaronKrause wrote:


LavenderMintRose wrote:

I love the phenomenon of anime-only endings, and I sort of wish they still did them instead of this ridiculous no-ending, go-read-the-books thing they do nowadays. It was always so interesting to see two different writers' take on the same material.

But of course, fandom, being it's typical horribly stupid self, always hated them.

That's because Anime Only content is on the same level as Fanfiction. Their [sic] both non canon garbage.
If you want to know what happens, seriously go read the books.


Some fanfics can be really good actually.
Whether it's "canon" or not doesn't determine whether it's good or not. I put "canon" in quotes not because I don't believe canon is important (it is), but because, you know... some works have multiple official canons.

(I hope you don't enjoy anything from DC or Marvel, because no matter what it is, at this point, it's pretty far from the first appearances of the characters. So if you like Young Justice, you've dirtied yourself with "non-canon garbage". Sorry.)

Also, just curious, have you read the books of Howl's Moving Castle? Because most people who hate adaptations tend to still be too busy worshipping Miyazaki to realize there are books.
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Posted 1/26/17 , edited 2/1/17
Alright, here it is...

Petite Princess Yucie starts off like a typical little girl/magical girl anime, but near the end it goes into some really deep & dark philosophical places. A young girl cursed never to age beyond the physical appearance of 10, but who is actually 18 deals with some really heavy & even downright brutal stuff she has to go through.
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Posted 1/26/17 , edited 1/26/17
I would rather have anime only endings then see a show I enjoyed go past 48 episodes. gate, prime example. I can watch it from start to finish in one sitting and so what it they slapped a shipped ending together. atleast it had an ending. yes I read manga but not for every show I watch and even if I did I would still like to see some of them end before the manga because not everyone, myself included can stick with a manga through 500+ chapters.

yuri bad sao good.
peace.
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Posted 1/26/17 , edited 1/26/17

LavenderMintRose wrote:


BaronKrause wrote:


LavenderMintRose wrote:

I love the phenomenon of anime-only endings, and I sort of wish they still did them instead of this ridiculous no-ending, go-read-the-books thing they do nowadays. It was always so interesting to see two different writers' take on the same material.

But of course, fandom, being it's typical horribly stupid self, always hated them.

That's because Anime Only content is on the same level as Fanfiction. Their [sic] both non canon garbage.
If you want to know what happens, seriously go read the books.


Some fanfics can be really good actually.
Whether it's "canon" or not doesn't determine whether it's good or not. I put "canon" in quotes not because I don't believe canon is important (it is), but because, you know... some works have multiple official canons.

(I hope you don't enjoy anything from DC or Marvel, because no matter what it is, at this point, it's pretty far from the first appearances of the characters. So if you like Young Justice, you've dirtied yourself with "non-canon garbage". Sorry.)

Also, just curious, have you read the books of Howl's Moving Castle? Because most people who hate adaptations tend to still be too busy worshipping Miyazaki to realize there are books.


I maintain that it's the departure from canon which gives fanfiction its power. Do not underestimate the power of disorientation.
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Posted 1/26/17 , edited 1/26/17

RedDauntless wrote:

You can have something that you know does everything technically right, was planned perfectly, and works for everyone, and still have difficultly connecting with it. And I have seen people accept this for every anime under the sun except FMA. I'm not surprised by this. It's kind of like saying The Godfather Part II is your least favorite in the franchise. Blasphemy. In the end, your reasons for liking and not liking things simply cannot depend on the material alone. I wasn't burnt out on hype, I didn't have any prior relationship with FMA before I watched it. I'm not trying to be edgy or different, I legitimately feel apathetic about the experience. I couldn't tell you why. That's just how things happened. That show means a lot to a lot of people, but not really to me, so I can't really speak to it that well.

I'm pretty indifferent to FMA as well, though in my case I've just watched Brotherhood. I respect it fairly and I'm glad I saw it after sakuga started getting noised around more since I was able to better appreciate Yoshimichi Kameda's work in that regard. But there's really no attachment there at all, just not my narrative wavelength.

Though if we want to talk about sacred cows I'd actually pick a real bone with there's always Rurouni Kenshin.


LavenderMintRose wrote:

Also... person who says they don't like the Geass dub... I'm just sort of laughing because, talk about typical anime fan knee-jerk hate. I swear, most of the dub haters watch the subbed version with the sound off. Or maybe when you don't speak any Japanese, you really don't notice how bad the acting is. Not that all English dubs are better - I'd say both have about 10% phenomenal, 30% good, 60% bad acting. Code Geass is one of the "phenomenal" ones in English... as is FMA03, for that matter. (Best in Japanese? .... Valvrave. No, seriously. The voice acting in that is amazing. L-elf <3)

At least anime isn't done in conversational Japanese. If it was I'd probably have never become a fan.
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Posted 1/26/17 , edited 1/26/17

LavenderMintRose wrote:



The problem with anime-original endings isn't whether they're good or not (although more often then not they aren't good). The problem is that it makes it very difficult to continue the main story after that. Why should it matter if a season ends with no conclusion if there's obviously more source material left to adapt later? That would be an insult to anime watchers who watched the anime to see the real story but instead got stuck with a completely different story that they never asked for. Do you think something like Attack on Titan should've made up a completely different ending instead of waiting for more manga chapters to make a second season? Once an anime deviates from the source material and concludes there, it wouldn't be possible to continue from there without calling it an alternate universe spin-off or something. Black Butler and Blue Exorcist recently have thrown their anime-original endings out the window so they could continue adapting the manga from where they last left off so maybe they can start a new trend. Prior to that studios just completely rebooted shows that had anime-original endings like FMA.

Anime that stick to the source material from beginning to end but occasionally have filler in between is a different matter. An adaptation of a long ongoing series could adapt up to certain points and have breaks in between, which for some reason you don't seem to like, or they do what Naruto does and have what seems to be endless filler. Shows like Kekkai Sensen that mix filler together with the main story and make it work well are rare.

Original anime aren't limited to the same restrictions as anime adaptations. The writers have more freedom to do anything they want since they're not messing with an already existing story. The success or failure of the series would depend entirely on the talent of the staff and studio.
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Posted 1/26/17 , edited 1/26/17
Original anime also has an edge in that established stories have their own cadence and sense of rhythm in terms of how they unfold and are experienced, and an adaptation often aims to mimic that established pattern but in an entirely different medium. Whereas if you're creating a story from scratch you can test and tune literally anything to get it right.

We see that in all mediums; I tend to recall Roger Ebert's bitter remonstrances with The Lord of the Rings.
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Posted 1/26/17 , edited 1/26/17

PhantomGundam wrote:


LavenderMintRose wrote:


... an insult to anime watchers who watched the anime to see the real story but instead got stuck with a completely different story that they never asked for. Do you think something like Attack on Titan should've made up a completely different ending instead of waiting for more manga chapters to make a second season?

I think you're making a big assumption about what viewers ask for when they start a show.

This is actually a pretty big philosophical question that a lot of people have written, practically, entire books on, but we should keep this pretty simple, I guess, for the purpose of this discussion.
People decide to watch a show based on the promotional material released before the release of the show. That will have some information about the characters, posters, summary, etc. It generally gives an indication of:
-genre
-tone
-style
-setting, characters, etc.

If an adaptation of a romantic comedy turns into a horror half way through, or vice versa, then the audience has a right to be annoyed by it - I wouldn't say "upset", really, because if you don't like it, just don't watch it.
But other than that... if the tone is similar and the characters make sense and are well developed, then it's a different story, but not a completely different story. It's still within the bounds of what the audience signed up for.

And actually, the live action Attack on Titan movies did make up an original story that is different in theme from the anime and manga. Do I think the anime should have done that? I don't think any particular series should or shouldn't do things other than what the writers and directors of those series want them to do. It seems sort of silly to say "they should make the show this way". If you like it, watch it. If you wish something were more like the original, skip the adaptation and read the original (I don't read the Code Geass manga at all, I don't even own them, because they're... not good. So I just don't read them).
If you think they should have changed something, but didn't... write a fanfic. (I'm actually planning a Valvrave fanfic that will be sort of like that... it's an idol AU.... yeah .... <3)



Anime that stick to the source material from beginning to end but occasionally have filler in between is a different matter. An adaption of a long ongoing series could adapt up to certain points and have breaks in between, which for some reason you don't seem to like, or they do what Naruto does and have what seems to be endless filler.



No, that works. Well, it works as long as the adaptations are good. Book of Circus was good, and hopefully when they do the school arc, it will be as good as Circus was. Murder and Atlantic suffered from sticking too close to the manga. Seriously, I know the manga practically by heart and that stuff is frame for frame... if they're going to be that literal, there's sort of no point in making an adaptation, except to make the fans squee over it. It's almost like a compilation film.

But Circus did interesting things with the animation, so that was good.

Just one more note on the topic of changes, though?

So, I'm a writer, and like... I would love to have a group of writer friends to collaborate with... and one of the things I would love to do is like, one person plans a whole novel, and writes the first few chapters, and gives them to everyone. And then everyone in the group (~5 people or so?) writes their own novel with the same beginning chapters. And then compare them and see who ended up where, and what everyone did with them. I think that would be fascinating.
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Posted 1/26/17 , edited 1/26/17

LavenderMintRose wrote:



Fair enough. It's up to individual tastes anyways. My point was that it's not wrong for people to complain about an anime adapting something and then changing the story. If you're hyped for a popular manga getting an adaptation and then near the end they butcher the hell out of it and give you a different story, it's only natural for many people to be upset, even those who are being exposed to the story for the first time. Personally, if I see an adaptation and it's got me hooked, I'd be one of those who are upset when that adaptation starts telling a different story than what was initially expected. In most cases it's easy to see the cognitive dissonance between the original creator and the people changing the story. I can't remember seeing an anime where the writers changed the story halfway or near the end where it didn't establish a different tone or conflict from what it originally was.
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